Curious as to your thoughts about O/U's in the medium caliber range (375 - 450/400).
Do you own one? Have you shot one? I did own a Valmet once and thought it was a pretty nice rifle but in a caliber I didnt need at the time.
Have read the action of the O/U's must be opened more than the SxS's to load and reload. Is it that much of an issue for non African game?
Thank you

Snowwolf
Although I don't have one in the caliber range that you stated I do have a Baikal O&U in 30-06. It does need to be opened quite a bit to remove the lower cartridge. Its a fun accurate gun. And after I installed a floating rib, I actually like the looks of it. Not bad for the $279.00 price tag.

I shot a Heym 450/400 O/U. Very accurate!

My Express rifle is an 8X57RJS Bernardelli. Great fun to shoot!

Snowwolf

Very interesing, as when I began my DR "addiction" many years ago, they had to be like my (Browning) shotguns, over/under and single trigger.

Now that I am longer in the tooth, they MUST be side by side with double triggers. All of my shotguns as well.

Life is an interesting journey.

I like over and under double rifles more.

Tikka 512Sd in 9.3x74R. Not quite a 375H&H but close! Very accurate but never hunted with it.
Peter

I have both O/U, and S/S rifles chambered for 9.3X74R. The O/U is a single trigger, and the S/S is a double with the right trigger a set trigger. Both are ejector rifles, and the O/U is fitted for a scope, while the S/S is express sights only.

I find the S/S to be a far easier rifle to shoot accurately, and far faster to re-load for shots three and four than the O/U. Also the iron sights on the O/U are useless because the stock is made for scope shooting only.

Once the stock is re-shaped for irons, I believe the difference between the two will narrow a bit. The scope interferes with the speedy re-loading of the O/U while the S/S is un-encumbered. That combined with the wider opening of the O/U for a reload of both barrels, or even reloading one barrel because the rifle automatically always fires the bottom barrel with the first pull of the trigger.
This might be better with two triggers, or a selective single trigger, but not in this case.

Admittedly there is a difference in quality of these two rifles as well. The S/S is a Merkel 140E-1, and the O/U is a Winchester Grand European! IMO, the Merkel is a far superior rifle over all to the Winchester O/U, but even with equal quality of manufacture, I would prefer the side by side every time for hunting from plains game to the most dangerous game on Earth. If these two rifles were set up with exactly the same features, the S/S would still be my choice, but that would be that same choice no matter the quality of either. I simply think the S/S is the superior design of the two where rifles are concerned. There is something to say for the O/U in shotguns for sporting clays, or quail hunting, but not for stopping anything that bites and that might need more than two shots.

Of course that is just my choice, and if the O/U is your choice and floats your canoe, paddle on across the lake!

O/U's in 9.3 x 74R (512S) and a Baikal '06

I'm looking at a Zoli 9.3x74 and Verney-Caron 450-400 in U/O at the moment. Good looking kits with a 4x36 S&B steel scope on top.
The Zoli mounts look great also.

Mac,

aren't the Winchesters just a 101 with rifle barrels?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac,

aren't the Winchesters just a 101 with rifle barrels?

Rich
DRSS

Rich I think that is basiclly true, but there is some difference. I have a Win 101 12 ga and I like it well enough for bird hunting.

The Grand Europian is different from the 101 shotgun, combination gun, and double rifle. The 101 is only chambered for the 30-06 and 270 Win, and has a different stock, and a selective trigger.

The shotgun has a single selective trigger, and I thought about trading the triggers but the selective wouldn't fit in the rifle without some mods on both guns. The Win rifle is not well regulated either, and is in need of a trip to JJ's shop. Once JJ does his magic, and I reshape the stock, I think the rifle will be a far better plains game rifle, but i will still grab my S/S for hunting where bite backs roam!

I have twoo/u double rifles a 375 H&H Heym and Browning in 30-06 with 20 ga barrels and I love both of them.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The Win rifle is not well regulated either, and is in need of a trip to JJ's shop.

It seems none of them were well regulated.

Quite a few over here were re regulated as well.

Once done, they can be very accurate DR's.

.

I have both and I'm happy with both. Yes the SXS is a little better on the reload but I like the way the O/U feels in my left hand.
I consider all of these considerations fairly minor and each to thir own.

On my first trip to Africa in 1971 and on two subsequent trips I was accompanied by my Krieghoff Teck (boxlock) O/U double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum, with interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H and 20 gauge 3" Magnum. It has double triggers and ejectors, double under lugs and Kersten double crossbolt locking system.

I grew up shooting a Browning 5-shot Automatic, then a Model 12 Winchester and finally a Browning Superposed. The single sight plane seems totally natural to me, as well as the deeper forearm. After years of shooting skeet with an ejector model O/U shotgun, reloading is instinctive.

My Krieghoff has accounted for elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, eland and greater and lesser kudu. I never had the slightest difficulty with it, and at the present I'm having a Krieghoff Ulm Primus (hand detachable sidelocks) built in 9.3X74R, and two Tecks converted, one to .500 NE, with interchangeable barrels in .450/.400 3", and the other to .450 3 1/4" NE and .400/.350, so I guess you could say that I'm pretty happy with the configuration.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The Win rifle is not well regulated either, and is in need of a trip to JJ's shop.

It seems none of them were well regulated.

Quite a few over here were re regulated as well.

Once done, they can be very accurate DR's.

.

I had a talk with JJ about re-regulating the rifle, and he told me that some were brazed and some soldered. It seems that is another difference in the Grand Europian and the origenal Winchester combination, and double rifle made for the American market. The GE was soldered, and the Win American was Brazed. Mine is soldered, and can be re-regulated easily.

It seems the Japanese tried the LAZER and Jig system of regulating on these rifles, and it simply doesn't work. It seems everybody that tries a short cut to regulating comes up short with very poor results! easy and cheap are two words that don't belong in the same sentence with DOUBLE RIFLE!

xausa, it is nice to see people who enjoy their firearm choice, as you certainly seem to! It evident that the O/U configuration works for you. It simply doesn't work well for me on anything where I need to reload very quickly with dire outcome if I fail to get the job done quick enough. I can reload and fire on target at least twice as quickly with a S/S double rifle than with an O/U. With a shotgun, which I have several O/Us it makes little difference because doves don't bite, and all break top shotguns are slower than a braek top rifle to re-load, because of the blunt end of shot shells. The rifle cartridge has only to have the bullet in the chamber opening and released to slide into the chambers. I find the O/U double rifle far faster to re-load that an O/U shotgun, but they are hard to re-load both chambers similtaniously in a rifle or shotgun, at least for me.

Any double rifle, no mater the action type and proper chambering, is better than any other rifle type when close encounters with bite backs are on the in-coming. I believe the U/O double rifle is best restricted to non-dangerous game, but that is a personal choice!

quote:

The GE was soldered, and the Win American was Brazed. Mine is soldered, and can be re-regulated easily.

Interesting, what makes you think that yours is soldered?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Curious as to your thoughts about O/U's in the medium caliber range (375 - 450/400).
Do you own one? Have you shot one? I did own a Valmet once and thought it was a pretty nice rifle but in a caliber I didnt need at the time.
Have read the action of the O/U's must be opened more than the SxS's to load and reload. Is it that much of an issue for non African game?
Thank you

Yes I own a couple, and my opinion on O/U DR's is the same as xausa's. They work very well.
All the talk about greater opening angle causing problems comes mainly from people who use unsuitable loading techniques, and then try to blame the O/U design.
So long as the gun is reliable, it fits you, it's regulated, and you know how to handle double rifles, the O/U DR works fine.

I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the Brits had invented the O/U and produced double rifles in O/U configuration? I bet we would have folks extolling the virtues of the single sighting plane etc. Just my 2 cents!
peter.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

The GE was soldered, and the Win American was Brazed. Mine is soldered, and can be re-regulated easily.

Interesting, what makes you think that yours is soldered?

I think it is soldered because JJ Perodeau told me it was, and told me to simply take a pin and test the solder at the muzzle around the wedge, to see if it is soft lead. I did and it was!

I understand you have one as well, was yours re-regulated? If so was it soldered or brazed?
The re-regulation would be simple if soldered, and though tougher, I was told by someone is OZ that the brazed ones can be re-regulated as well, but is risky. If your's was re-regulated did you do the work yourself? Was it a GE or the ones for the US market, which and was it soldered or brazed?
......................

There are 4 tiny spots at the muzzles where the top and bottom of each rib meet the "wedge". Is this where you tested for hardness with a pin?

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
There are 4 tiny spots at the muzzles where the top and bottom of each rib meet the "wedge". Is this where you tested for hardness with a pin?

That's what JJ told me to do,on another double,and that one turned out to be brazed, only in this case the ribs are on the sides, and is soft. More important is the wedge's connection to the barrels, and it is soft as well.

5seventy did your Winchester need re-regulating? If so how does it shoot now? Mine shoots very tight individual barrel groups from each barrel, it is just that the bottom barrel's group center is 2" to the left of point of aim, but only 3/4" low, and the top barrel's group center is 2" to the right, and is on the same elevation with the POA, all shot at 50 yds. The barrels, when viewed from the muzzle end with the rifle's action true upright vertically, the misalignment can be readily seen. The bottom barrel is off to the left of center, and the top barrel is off to the right. So that with solder heated a simple tweak of the barrels to be one over the other vertically would seem to be very close to a starting point here, and may be a fix if lucky! The barrel group centers are about the right amount apart vertically. The groups just need to be centered one over the other.

Another thing that was not well done on this rifle was the installation of the scope bases. They were fairly sloppily done, and really need some attention.

I would really like to get this thing over to JJ for the fixes, because the little rifle will be a fine deer rifle once sorted out.

................

Yes, my Grand European required re-regulating. I did the job myself quite some time back, maybe 10 years or so.
After the re-regulation it shoots fine.
Mine and all other Grand European DR's that I've seen or know of, have had the barrels joined by brazing. The ribs though, are soft soldered.
These rifles are not simple to re-regulate and will require more time than a normal re-regulation job.

If yours has the barrels joined to the wedge with soft solder, it sounds like someone may have already attempted to do a re-regulation job on it, and was unsuccessfull.

If you can take a clear photo showing the wedge and muzzles, and post it here, I can tell you in an instant whether your GE is soft or hard soldered at the barrels to wedge joint, and also if it has had any alteration at some time.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the Brits had invented the O/U and produced double rifles in O/U configuration? I bet we would have folks extolling the virtues of the single sighting plane etc. Just my 2 cents!
peter.

Actually, there were several British made O/U rifles. I once owned a Westley Richards Ovundo drop lock double rifle in caliber 400/350. I sold it (to my regret) because there was then (1970's) no source for the original 310 grain bullets for which it was regulated. I believe Lancaster and Boss also had O/U models.

ozhunter
PM sent
John

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
Yes, my Grand European required re-regulating. I did the job myself quite some time back, maybe 10 years or so.
After the re-regulation it shoots fine.
Mine and all other Grand European DR's that I've seen or know of, have had the barrels joined by brazing. The ribs though, are soft soldered. These rifles are not simple to re-regulate and will require more time than a normal re-regulation job.

The joints between the barrels and the wedge are very tight and there is almost no exposed joining meterial showing there, but what I can see seems silver in color and may be silver solder. I think it would have to have the ribs removed before one could be sure. Where the barrels soft loldered in to the mono-block, or were they brazed there as well?

If the barrels were soft soldered into the mono-block I will simply remove all the ribs, sights, and quarter rib, and barrels from the mono-block and install new barrels chambered 303 Britt, regulate with soft solder and be done with it! I've always wanted a 303 Britt double rifle anyway, but every one I've seen has been shot out!

quote:

If yours has the barrels joined to the wedge with soft solder, it sounds like someone may have already attempted to do a re-regulation job on it, and was unsuccessfull.

.

You may be right there,but it doesn't look to have even been shot that much, and it may be as you say, BRAZED.

I've been thinking about an easy way to re-regulate these brazed rifles with soft solder without removing the brazed-in muzzle wedge, but modifying the wedge in place. If I decide to re-barrel, I may try the method before I buy the new barrel blanks. Nothing to loose but spare time, something I have pleanty at my age, and fixed income level!

Thank you for the answers in you post!

............... ...................

The barrels to monobloc is a brazed joint. The quarter rib and front sight ramp are also brazed to the barrels.
The only place you'll find soft solder on these (unmodified) doubles is on the side ribs.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
The barrels to monobloc is a brazed joint. The quarter rib and front sight ramp are also brazed to the barrels.
The only place you'll find soft solder on these (unmodified) doubles is on the side ribs.

Thanks, that's good to know! Bad to work on however!

I think Ferlach O/U's are very elegant and for moose, elk, deer and non
African game of all sorts a wonderful choice. AFRICA to my mind is a SxS
and bolt action local. That's just emotion talking.

I have a few O/U DR's,

1. .375RDS, which is a wildcat that gives H&H velocities with a big rimmed case.

2. .408x74R another wildcat that uses .408" diameter bullets in a imp. 74R case.

3. 9.3x74Rimp that fires std. 9.3x74R ammo, or you can handload the fired cases that have fireformed to imp., and that means it has a bit more capacity. That will give a bit higher velicities over the std. 74R.

4. 30-06

5. .243 Win.

6. 7x65R

And i've owned several others in different cartridges. BUT, i MUCH prefer my Chapuis S&S. It's pretty much the only DR i shoot these days.

I MUCH prefer a S&S.

DM

I have been using a Zoli 450/400 for over a year and it is a well built, rugged, reliable and accurate double. With the easily removable trigger group it is as easy to clean as a Wesley Richards drop lock
It is the only double I have seen or used that I consider rugged enough for Alaskan conditions

I bought my FN-Browning CCS25 back in 1982. It is chambered in 9,3x74R and I had it scoped later on with a Swarovski 1,25-4x24 in Sühler claw mounts (bbls. had to be re-regulated after scoping). I use it for drive hunting (Roe-, Red deed and wild boar)the most popular hunting mode in this country. It is quite accurate and both bbls. shoot into 1 hole at 60 m.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:


I have been using a Zoli 450/400 for over a year and it is a well built, rugged, reliable and accurate double. With the easily removable trigger group it is as easy to clean as a Wesley Richards drop lock
It is the only double I have seen or used that I consider rugged enough for Alaskan conditions

Phil,
I like! Will you be bringing this rifle to the shoot on Saturday?
Those removeable triggers would solve some doubts I have about severe weather hunting with a double.
Approximately what does a Zoli 450/400 cost?

I planned on bringing it along with ammo so folks could shoot it but have to run up to Talkeetna tonight and am not sure I can make the shoot in the morning. PM me or give me a call and we can do it another time