Hello,

So Barrel says Lyon & Lyon Calcutta.
From the poor picture, I can see it has a dolls head 3rd bite, Bolstered boxlock, Bushed strikers that dovetail in from the top.

Any guesses who made it for them.

Thanks

Would help if you could post the photo or a link to it.

Under the Lyon & Lyon name, the bolstered frame on a boxlock would suggest Osborne, Birmingham, but it could also be from a number of others.

Does the action look like this?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100104296
--------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Yes !
Exactly same boxlock.
Will get closer inspection on Wednesday, Any thing to look for other than the usual ?
Thanks
Nitro450exp

Thought so.

When you see it, examine it carefully for other markings, especially on the underside of the barrels, on or near the fore-end loop. Look for a five-digit number stamped. Also, take note of the serial number of the gun, presumably on the guard tang. The number on the tang will probably also be stamped on the underside of both barrels. However, there should be a third number, probably non-matching, on or near the loop. It's possible everything will match, as Lyon & Lyon was strictly a retailer, and may not have assigned their own serial numbers, in which case they WILL match.

Also proofmarks, should be Birmingham. Should be crown over BV, crown over BP, crown over NP, "Cordite xx - xxxMAX"; xxxEX, should all be present on the barrel flats. MAY also be 3.xx". I don't have to tell you that bore condition is paramount as to value. Photos will help. Please let us know what you find.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks.

Greener has there trade mark elephant, is there a trade mark that would make it a Lancaster ?
It does have a 5 digit serial # in the 40,000 range as well as a non matching 3 digit on the extended trigger guard.

I will keep you posted and try to provide pictures.

Nitro450exp

Ring any bells?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...n=0&page=5#Post54455

Lancaster didn't build it.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The same question always gets posted on multiple forums !!!

Hello,

Not the same gun.
Same bolsters, but has a lever style forearm release, Different caliber (450 NE) and bushed strikers.
So is it a Lancaster or Osborne ?
I got a little confused.

Thanks
Nitro450exp

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Hello,

Not the same gun.
Same bolsters, but has a lever style forearm release, Different caliber (450 NE) and bushed strikers.
So is it a Lancaster or Osborne ?
I got a little confused.

Simple explanation. By advent of the nitro era (1890s), the London trade was no longer attempting to build boxlock DRs, because they couldn't make a profit on them building them in house. Almost without exception, these were "bought in" from the trade - Birmingham - where there were a number of express rifle specialists to "the trade". For example, Webley is famous for the high quality double rifles they made back in the day. Well over 90% of Webley's output bears somebody else's name. It's COMMON to see a specific Webley model, like the PHV-1 for example, with Holland & Holland's name on it, and then see the identical rifle bearing an obscure retailers name that nobody's ever heard of, like London Sporting Park, both with Webley serial numbers on the left side of the loop.

Same with Osborne. Osborne was a major "trade maker", the Lancaster in the link above for example. Lyon & Lyon, Calcutta wasn't a gunmaker, they were just one of many retailers scattered around the empire. The guns bearing their name were all made by someone else. Double rifles like this one, "made for the trade", were still hand made, and what was delivered was what was ordered. Caliber, type of fore-end latch, bolted safety, sights, stock dimensions, etc...were specified by order. Few were delivered exactly the same.

The actual maker is sometimes readily identifiable, but sometimes not. That's where the markings come in. The 3 digit number on the trigger guard tang is the retailer's - Lyon & Lyon. As a rule of thumb, the Birmingham trade makers DID mark guns built for the trade with their own serial numbers - there are exceptions, such as Wilkes, another prolific trade maker. The normal practice was to place this number on, or in the immediate vicinity of, the fore-end loop (the stud soldered to the bottom of the barrels that the fore-end attaches to). That appears to be the number you referred to as being in the 40,000 range. That's the number I need.

Given the "40,000 range", there's one more mark that I hope is there. There may be a mark that appears as a pair of crossed swords with a letter in the 12 o'clock angle and a number in the 6 o'clock angle on ONE of the barrel flats. If it's there, what is the letter at 12 o'clock? Take a magnifying glass with you.
----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

For illustration purposes, here's a Lancaster .280 Flanged from 1912:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...n=0&page=4#Post61739

This is Webley's PHV-1 Model, Webley serial number 13049. This rifle is a rare example of a Webley DR built for "the trade" that MAY have been finished by the retailer, and the action bar is filed up in a way that is not typical of this model, nor is the engraving pattern. By the same token, these are full custom guns and the finish style could easily have been ordered that way from Webley's.

Here's the Lancaster .400 again from the same time period:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...n=0&page=5#Post54455

Can't find my notes for the numbers. Totally different rifle, because it's from Osborne instead of Webley.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."