If remington can make a double rifle cheap and probley sell bunches with everyone hear waiting on them so long,How come Ruger doesnt step up & make us a nice one along the lines of the Number one?A ruger double as nice as a number one rifle would sell like crazy!Ruger seems to have produced arms styles where others were afraid to tread!They make a nice express rifle and single shot ,Why not a double rifle...next year!

bbh, first Remington is trying to import a cheap SxS. They have NOT DONE THIS YET .

I do not think a falling block SxS would catch on. If Ruger had a small framed Gold Label shotgun (w/2 triggers) to base a rifle on then they MIGHT have a chance. If Ruger follows their pattern of announcments and actual release of said weapon, it would be years in coming. Just like they did with the Gold Label, the Mini-14, etc.

That said, I would love to see a domesticly produced, production model, and affordable SxS rifle. In classic flanged chaberings.

Hog Killer

I being of a sick mind and weak body have often thought Ruger should do just that.

I don't think we'll ever see it. But I'd sure like to see a ruger NE rifle based on some incarnation of the gold label.

Years ago when Ruger came out with the No1, then the No3, the hope was that the Ruger No2 would be a double rifle.

most guys don't wear a Rolex but many wear Timex. seems like some gun company could do the same thing. just a thought. Kurt.

A Gold Label based 450/400 would sell WELL! What is the general belief that the price of such a theoretical weapon would be?

Just curious,

John

quote:

Originally posted by kweber:
most guys don't wear a Rolex but many wear Timex. seems like some gun company could do the same thing. just a thought. Kurt.

Wel fact is, Rolex aint nothin special, they produce about 500,000 units a year.

The supreme list of watches are Patek Philippe(undisputed leader,about 10,00 units a year of various complications),Piaget,BlacPain,VacheronConstantine,AudemarsPiguet,Chopard.... The list goes on... Rolex ranks about 10th on a good day.
Fact is Id rather have a timex and a Patek for different occasions,and give the Rolex a total miss, they are for twats. The typical wealthy asian tourist rush in and buy Rolex & Louis Vitton luggage, makes them so obvious and so drone like. Money does not necessarily mean one has class.
But Im with KurtC,bring on the "Timex" double rifle, its worth a shot.

IWC is the one watch really, blows the rest out of the water.

However if I had the money for such a watch I would never spend it on a simple thing as a watch.

Best regards Chris

Gee, I guess the Rolex I have worn everyday, since my wife gave the watch to me 20 years ago, hasn't been good? Nice to know I'm a twat!

I have always seen Rolex as the Hummer of wrist watches...made on an assembly line but having the ability to survive just about anything. Not so for a Patek or the other names so boorishly listed above by our resident authority as superior. I commend you Woodjack, on your ability to TRULY stand out as a snob among those of us who readily acknowledge our snobbery.

Give me a Rolex Sea-dweller and a Ruger 450/400....I'll spend the rest on hunting.

JMHO,

John

I do think this thread may have been hijacked

I prefer my Omega Seamaster over a Rolex anyday - keeps better time too.

I don't think the gold label is strong enough for a nitro conversion. Now a CZ on the other hand could be "beefed up". I will admit that that round action would be nice though!
A nice 450/400 for 2500 to 4000 would be grand!!

505ED

I can remember seeing a beatiful american gunmakers guild double rifle that was being auctioned/raffled off i think it was in american rifleman NRA magazine or guns ammo magazine.anyway it was a 405 winchester built on a 20ga.A.H.FOX shotgun.It was super nice and had a grizzly bear engraved on one side and i think a moose on the other.The builder was a well known custom builder and all the work was perfect.I may still have the book somewhere,I will try to look it up.Maybe some of you guys remember seeing it also,back in the 80s.Anyway what iam getting at,can a double rifle be built on a old double shotgun cheaper than the prices we see from the big makers?With the CNC machines out there now,,if a person allready had the receiver the barrels should be all that would have to be machined and the regulation part has allready been short cutted with the new systems.i think some other top end double builders now have the regulation hinge in place.Maybe we could talk jeffrosso & rip into a new project for the new year!We could could call it the AR Double!and chamber it for some AR rounds?I dont know any local gunsmiths that have tired to convert a double shotgun before,do you?Anyway its nice to dream sometimes,it could happen!I think searcy did some ruger red lables on 300H&H before?I would want a side by side instead of a over and under.If pressure is a issue i would be happy with a 405,30-30 or small caliber for deer & hog.Could a 22 hornet be done this way?Built on a 410 action,that would stir the squills up?I have heard of this being done on a over & under shotgun ,converted to a over & under muzzle loader of all things.Just dont know the time and cost of a project like this,anyone have any ideas what would be involved?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
A Gold Label based 450/400 would sell WELL! What is the general belief that the price of such a theoretical weapon would be?

Just curious,

John

The italian company Sabatti makes "production" doubles like this in calibers up to 9,3x74R:



Price in Sweden about $ 2300. Why not having Sabatti make some 450/400 N. E. with whatever US brand you want; Chevy, Ford or even DeSoto, Sorry I mean Remington, Ruger or

Such a rifle with the more expensive 450/400 barrels would be possible to sell for $ 3000?

But the sellers would adjust their prices just under the prices of Merkel???

Husky

It was done by Tony Fleming, Paul Dressel Jr., and Ralf Bone. You could read the story here
www.dressels.com/id179.htm
It just does not have that English look.

505ED

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
I can remember seeing a beatiful american gunmakers guild double rifle that was being auctioned/raffled off i think it was in american rifleman NRA magazine or guns ammo magazine.anyway it was a 405 winchester built on a 20ga.A.H.FOX shotgun.It was super nice and had a grizzly bear engraved on one side and i think a moose on the other.The builder was a well known custom builder and all the work was perfect.I may still have the book somewhere,I will try to look it up.Maybe some of you guys remember seeing it also,back in the 80s.Anyway what iam getting at,can a double rifle be built on a old double shotgun cheaper than the prices we see from the big makers?With the CNC machines out there now,,if a person allready had the receiver the barrels should be all that would have to be machined and the regulation part has allready been short cutted with the new systems.i think some other top end double builders now have the regulation hinge in place.Maybe we could talk jeffrosso & rip into a new project for the new year!We could could call it the AR Double!and chamber it for some AR rounds?I dont know any local gunsmiths that have tired to convert a double shotgun before,do you?Anyway its nice to dream sometimes,it could happen!I think searcy did some ruger red lables on 300H&H before?I would want a side by side instead of a over and under.If pressure is a issue i would be happy with a 405,30-30 or small caliber for deer & hog.Could a 22 hornet be done this way?Built on a 410 action,that would stir the squills up?I have heard of this being done on a over & under shotgun ,converted to a over & under muzzle loader of all things.Just dont know the time and cost of a project like this,anyone have any ideas what would be involved?

I can take you back to the 40s, and 50s and the posts wouldn't be very different from the one above! There have always been those who think that shortcuts can be utilized to build a double rifle! It is true a pair of barrels can be soldered together, and chambered for rifle cartridges, and mounted on a Savage 311 shotgun, but so could a pair of water pipes, and the result would be about the same, in most cases, JUNK!

The fact is there is no way to build a REAL double rifle other than the way it has been done for 200 yrs. Every trick, you can think of, has been tried, by the best makers in the world, and it was found the only way to bulid a cheap double rifle that is worth owning, is by slave labor costs!

The process is the same,and only the cost is lower! Except for the outside finishing, everything else must be done, by hand, to very exacting tolerances.

People who can do this work, do not come cheap, even at Russian labor costs. A machinest in the USA makes a minimum of $25 per hour, for an aprentice, with approximetly 600 hours required to build even a cheap double, the cost of machine work alone would not yeald a very cheap double rifle. Even if that could be cut in half on the machines, it would still cost $7500,before the hand fitting started. It most likely would not shoot worth crap! Even the best machinest is not capable of building a double rifle on his machines alone. The very complex, and skilled regulating, and fitting of a double rifle has to be done by hand!

The only reason we have low priced doubles like the Merkels is the skilled wage in East Germany, have not cought up to the rest of the world since the wall fell. Made in the USA, about $10K is about as low as it will likely be, and the quality of the finished product will depend on WHO does the work, and he will not make a fortune either!

Most very capable gun smiths do not have the skill needed to build a real double rifle at any cost! That is the reason most makers like to put the Merkels down, becasue they can't compete with the low manufactureing cost of East Germany, not because of quality issues!

The words "CHEAP, and "DOUBLE RIFLES" do not belong in the same sentence, IMO!

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:

It just does not have that English look.

Uh...engraving moose and bear on a rifle will tend to do that.

Best,

John

Well From what I've read in the above posts. Maybe we should have Rolex build double rifles.

"We band of twats"

I've owned a Rolex GMT II for 19 years and the thing still functions perfect and still looks brand new. I agree that the Rolex is not the most precision time piece or the classiest but they are hell for stout.

I can kill a Timex or a Seiko in about a month under normal work and play conditions.


Now back to Double rifles.

When the Blaser S-2 came out they were selling for like $6,500.

I am guessing if Ruger were to build doubles that would be a pretty much bottom end level price.

And the only reason that Blaser can do the S-2 as cheap as they do is because they've simply done away with the traditional regulation process of the barrels.

As I said before I don't expect to ever see it.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
A Gold Label based 450/400 would sell WELL! What is the general belief that the price of such a theoretical weapon would be?

Just curious,

John

The italian company Sabatti makes "production" doubles like this in calibers up to 9,3x74R,


Price in Sweden about $ 2300. Why not having Sabatti make some 450/400 N. E. with whatever US brand you want; Chevy, Ford or even DeSoto, Sorry I mean Remington, Ruger or

Such a rifle with the more expensive 450/400 barrels would be possible to sell for $ 3000?

But the sellers would adjust their prices just under the prices of Merkel???

Husky

That is in the Eropian countries! By the time Uncle Sam tacked on his sercharge, for import to the USA,importer fee, and distributer fees, and dealer profit, that rifle would cost as much as the Merkel! I have a merkel 140E 9.3X74R
and I doubt the quality of the Sabati is better than that of the Merkel.

Thanks 505ED! Thats the rifle,isnt she a looker! Another Double rifle that i always thought was a real looker was the Rogue river rifleworks Double made in Paso Robles,CA.They had a case colored receiver with scroll engraveing done up nice,anyone remember them or know if there still around?I found the old Rogue River add in a old double gun journal from 1997 while looking for the other rifle article ,also found a add for a cool double rifle falling block ,the companys name is Hagn rifles & actions inc. Langley,British Columbia Canada.There rifle does sorta look like the ruger#1.I think the Rogue River looks just right ...with the case colored receiver.... I would be proud to own one of those!375H&H or 9.3x74R would be my choices!Thanks again for the info everyone!

Any pilots here? Keep your Rollex's I'll have one of these, well, if I could afford one that is. They just have a cool web site.

http://www.breitling.com/en/

As far as Ruger making doubles it is a fairly limited market and I don't know that they could do it and make them affordable. Who knows though. If enough people badger them maybe they will go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
Another Double rifle that i always thought was a real looker was the Rogue river rifleworks Double made in Paso Robles,CA.They had a case colored receiver with scroll engraveing done up nice,anyone remember them or know if there still around?

I found the old Rogue River add in a old double gun journal from 1997 while looking for the other rifle article

Thanks again for the info everyone!

BBH, it is my understanding, the Rogue River doubles were not well regulated, and were an experiment in joining the barrels, and ribs. The barrels were joined with a space age glue, that was designed to hold the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle. It seems the guy who built them was a retired NASA employee, and had access to this glue! There were some real problems with these rifles. They weren't regulated too well, and couldn't be re-regulated. Simply an experiment that didn't turn out too well. The actions they were built on was a Merkel Anson & Deeley action and not made by Rogue River. IMO, the action was the only quality item on the rifles. They are no longer made!

The same gentleman who built the Rogue River now has bought the "NAME" J. Rigby, and are now building doubles under that name, still in Paso Robles, Ca. This company is also in trouble, if the word going around is any indication. Though these rifles are being built in the normal manner, they are not of the quality, the "NAME" would indicate, IMO! These rifles have not been well accepted by the double rifle community, and are, IMO, highly over priced for mediocre work with a prestigeous name engraved on it. Still I believe the only quality on them is the Merkel action, they still use on the new rifles! Of course this is only my opinion, and not binding on anyone wanting to buy a new double rifle made by them.

I think this thread bears watching

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
A Gold Label based 450/400 would sell WELL! What is the general belief that the price of such a theoretical weapon would be?

Just curious,

John

The italian company Sabatti makes "production" doubles like this in calibers up to 9,3x74R,


Price in Sweden about $ 2300. Why not having Sabatti make some 450/400 N. E. with whatever US brand you want; Chevy, Ford or even DeSoto, Sorry I mean Remington, Ruger or

Such a rifle with the more expensive 450/400 barrels would be possible to sell for $ 3000?

But the sellers would adjust their prices just under the prices of Merkel???

Husky

That is in the Eropian countries! By the time Uncle Sam tacked on his sercharge, for import to the USA,importer fee, and distributer fees, and dealer profit, that rifle would cost as much as the Merkel! I have a merkel 140E 9.3X74R
and I doubt the quality of the Sabati is better than that of the Merkel.

Come on MacD37!
Swedish Value Added Tax (VAT) is 25%

Husky

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Come on MacD37!
Swedish Value Added Tax (VAT) is 25%

Husky

And the Euro against the dollar is not in our favor!

I wonder if we could get a group buy from them?

my post about Rolex and Timex was a thought as to why a utilitarian double could not be made by one of the large gun manufactor. not nessisarily a high-end model, just a hunting gun. sorry for the mix-up. Kurt.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

quote:

Originally posted by kweber:
most guys don't wear a Rolex but many wear Timex. seems like some gun company could do the same thing. just a thought. Kurt.

Wel fact is, Rolex aint nothin special, they produce about 500,000 units a year.

The supreme list of watches are Patek Philippe(undisputed leader,about 10,00 units a year of various complications),Piaget,BlacPain,VacheronConstantine,AudemarsPiguet,Chopard.... The list goes on... Rolex ranks about 10th on a good day.
Fact is Id rather have a timex and a Patek for different occasions,and give the Rolex a total miss, they are for twats. The typical wealthy asian tourist rush in and buy Rolex & Louis Vitton luggage, makes them so obvious and so drone like. Money does not necessarily mean one has class.
But Im with KurtC,bring on the "Timex" double rifle, its worth a shot.

Among Naval Aviators and senior Naval Aviation Maintenance folks E6 and up, the go eye candy watch is the Breitling Navitimer. The Omega Submariner and Rolex Submariner have some following.

I like the Brietling Emergency with the dual beacons, seems like just the watch for Artic exploration, polar bear hunts, and what not.

I also like the Omega self winding dive watch with the natural rubber bracelet.

Your right the Asians have hard ons for the damn Rolexes but they all know that Patek Phillipe is king.

Speaking of King, most of the remaining kings in the world wear Patek Phillipe Monarchy watches.

While we were in port in Dubai, I was at one of the Rolex dealers with some Aviator and Maintainer friends and they all walked out with Omegas, Rolexes, and one Patek. I took the cheap route and hit the Tissot, it's nice but not beyond it's $380 price tag.

Someday a Breitling Emergency will sit above the mole on the left arm.

Oh' and Sabattis are crap.

The American importer wants $7000 for that gun.

The over and under double rifle sold for $1300 in Spain and the double for $1600.

J.U.N.K.

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
Any pilots here?
http://www.breitling.com/en/

Yes but I only fly big jets which are not equiped with weapons or ejection seats so depending on who you ask I may not qualify. The only air to air combat I've ever done was at the "Battle for Macho Grande" . I have water bombed some trees, been on fire once, had minor crashes, twice, and dead sticked two to the ground succesfully, does that count?

I can honestly say that in 19 years of commercial flying I've never seen another professional pilot wearing a Breitling watch. Maybe I'm just not looking that hard but at this moment I can't recall it. The Rolex GMT master is the one you see most often in the expensive watch catagory and overall most folks wear a digital Casio with multiple time zones in it.

But what does this have to do with Double rifles. I digress.

As to the comment about modified Ruger #1's being made into doubles, I think it could be done in a cost effective manner.
(Martin Hagn makes a similar double falling block rifle...very pricey...very strong).

I think the regulation could be done more cheaply by using a precise laser module within each chamber/bore, the barrels clamped into temporary position, test fired, and then soldered.
Finish would precede from there.

The tricky part would be how the barrels mated to the receiver.

Garrett

I think if Ruger was going to try this, they would have done so while Bill Ruger was still alive. He was a double rifle lover and owned a number of fine British doubles. I don't think it will ever happen.

Various laser methods have been tried to simplify the regulation process with little success. The ribs, sights, wedge, and fore-end loop must be soldered on before regulation. Attempting to add them later changes regulation.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Economy of scale isn't favorable for DRs... not enough of them sold.

If Tonka made a good double rifle it would still be expensive, and a cheap double rifle is still much more expensive than a comparable bolt gun.

Besides, even if Ruger did make a million of them per year, they would get 90% returns b/c the guys that bought them would return them saying weren't as "accurate" as thier much-less-expensive Savage 110 or their H&Rs (which are only 50% less effective than a DR.)

The mass market simply isn't ready for the DR and all of its nuances and intricacies.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
If remington can make a double rifle cheap and probley sell bunches with everyone hear waiting on them so long,How come Ruger doesnt step up & make us a nice one along the lines of the Number one?A ruger double as nice as a number one rifle would sell like crazy!Ruger seems to have produced arms styles where others were afraid to tread!They make a nice express rifle and single shot ,Why not a double rifle...next year!

Remington cannot make a cheap double rifle. Neither can Ruger! The ones REM. were trying to import were made in Russia, and all they have been able to come up with so far are several examples of SXS's, and a marketable number of O/U's. The O/U's looks like hell because the barrels are hanging out there in thin air with no ribs between them. If the "cheap" SXS's ever arrive, I hope there's at least some steel between the barrels.

Right now, it seems as if Remington has more or less given up on the idea of importing the SXS's, because they keep shoving the introduction date back. (Seems like maybe they just can't get any!!) So who knows the status of this project today??

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:

I think the regulation could be done more cheaply by using a precise laser module within each chamber/bore, the barrels clamped into temporary position, test fired, and then soldered.
Finish would precede from there.

The tricky part would be how the barrels mated to the receiver.

Garrett

Folks, you would not believe the number of times I've been asked why this wouldn't work, by even very well known gunsmiths, who should have known better! and it sounds reasonable to someone who doesn't know better. The fact is, the reasons that it doesn't work is why there are so few people in the world today, who can regulate a double rifle!

The use of lazers sounds like a method to them, I guess, but what it does is, show that they have absolutely no idea what is involved in the physics of regulation of a pair of barrels to hit the same place on the target, from a double rifle!

The fact is if that would work all one would have to do is make sure the barrels were simply paralell, and solder them together!

The trouble is, it doesn't work! It has been tried by every maker in the world, and these barrels are still regulated same way they were 150 yrs ago! Why do you think that is? It is because that is the way it has to be done!

Factories today use the lazers to place the barrel convergence by an educated guess for a starting point! That is as far as it can be used. The dynamics of regulation intakes more than simply the amount the barrels are converged. The final regulation has as much to do with the unhendered recoil of the rifle, and the speed of the bullet, as it does with the positions of the barrels, in realtion to each other! Basicly the rifle has to be in all but the final finish before the regulation is undertaken. This is because anything that changes the weight, or ballance of the rifle such as machine rests, or clamps, also effects the point of empact on the target. As silly as it may sound, to those who do not know, at the exact nano-second the primer is struck by the fireing pin, the barrel is pointed at a point on the target, and when the bullet leaves the barrel, the the barrel is pointed at an intirely different place on the target. This is a thing called barrel time!

with the barrels at rest, right barrel is pointing at a place below, and to the left of the POA on the target, and the left barrel is pointing to a spot low, and right of the POA on the target. As the rt barrel is fired, the recoil moves the barrel up, and to the RT during recoil, to a point where the barrel is pointing at the place you want to hit the target when the bullet exits the barrel, and vice versa for the other barrel. This is called Barrel time. In a Double rifle the barrel being fired will always move up, and away from the opposite barrel, before the bullet leaves the muzzle! The lazer might work if the rifle was tied down, or weighed 300 lbs, but if you untie it, or reduce the weight to a regular rifle the rifle wouldn't shoot to anywhere near the point it did before, because now the recoil arch will effect the POI on the target!

It would take a very thick book to fully explain exactly what is involved from start to finish in the regulating porcess!