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Hello double rifle folks. I am new to this forum and double rifles. Wanted to say "hello" and share my first shooting experience with my new Sabatti 45-70. I was very careful to pick out a gun with no evidence of the muzzle crowns being molested. Also, my gun's factory regulation target showed only two shots. I assumed this was a left and right pair, even though the target is not so labelled. The "group" was just over an inch and point of impact was centered on the target. I realize a two shot "group" is of no statistical significance, but this target did encourage me. Also, I thought maybe there just being two shots meant there had been no "regulation" beyond that done when the barrels were first manufactured. I also purchased a box of the Hornady 325 grain Leverevolution ammo, the same as the gun was regulated with. Took the gun to my range today and fired a total of 10 rounds of the Hornady ammo - five rounds from each barrel. From a rest at 50 yards, the left barrel grouped 0.99 inches and the right barrel grouped 0.82 inches. I was most pleased with those results. The groups were about 5 inches above the point of aim even holding the front bead as deep in the rear "V" as I could. However, that is a problem that is relatively easy to fix. But, if all 10 shots were taken as one group, it measured 5.75 inches. The left barrel grouped to the left and the right barrel to the right. No crossing and the elevation of the left and right groups was the same. Average velocity was 1948 fps with a standard deviation of 24 fps. Sure did not look anything like the factory test target. Am I wrong to expect a rifle in this price range to be better regulated than this? I sure cannot complain about the accuracy of each individual barrel, but I expected better regulation than this especially in view of the factory target. I am a handloader of long experience, including loading for a number of single shot and lever guns chambered in 45-70 so I have a lot of options there. I have not yet tried handloads since I wanted to see how the gun shot with the factory regulation loads. Sabatti warns about handloads voiding the warrenty as well, so that was another consideration. I have sent Cabelas and USSG an email reporting my results and asking for recommendations. We will see what they have to say. Grinding on the crowns is not an option for me. I have spent too many years being careful to avoid crown damage from cleaning, etc. to allow that. This particular gun looks really nice and its individual barrels are quite accurate. I sure would like to find a way to keep it, but with a little better regulation. Do you think handloads might be a solution? Glad to be a member of this forum and the DRSS, even if my first outing with a double was a bit disappointing. If there is interest, I will try to keep everyone posted on how this turns out. tomclink, DRSS | ||
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If any point of the rifle was touching the rest, more than likely that's thre problem. That "ain't" a bolt gun. The next step is to speed up the velocity some and see if it'll bring the point together. What load were you shooting or did you use what they did to regulate it? NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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I wouldn't get too worried just yet. I would start working on handloads using a few different components. You'll most likely find quite a bit of difference in how the different loads shoot. Yes I would also hope for better results if using the same load the manufacturer used for regulation, but there are a lot of options open to you at this point. IIRC, most all rifle manufacturers state that the use of hand loads will void the warranty. I wouldn't be too concerned about that either. I can't remember the last box of factory ammo I purchased. Sometime around 1983 I think! Good luck with it going forward and welcome to the DRSS! | |||
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Mike and Todd, thanks for your replys. Mike, the load I was shooting was the factory Hornady load that is stated to be the regulation load used by Sabatti. My bench technique was to rest the lower part of the butt stock on a sandbag and I placed my left hand between the forearm and the front sandbag. I believe I had read eariler on this forum to avoid resting the forearm directly on a bag. Does my bench technique sound correct for double rifles? It sure did result in nice individual barrel groups. Todd, your post is encouraging. I had pretty much reached the same conclusion to go ahead and try some handloads to see the results. That is the way I will go. By the way, I had an email from USSG this morning. In the email I sent them last evening describing how the gun shot, I ask if they had a taller front sight to allow me to lower the point of impact. In their email this morning they said they would send me a taller front sight, but they made no comment concerning the rest of the information I had sent them about the rifles performance. Thanks again for the information. tomclink, DRSS | |||
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You should never allow the rifle to touch anything except your shoulder and your left hand. Definitely not the butt resting on the bag. Yes, you can get good individual barrel groups by holding the rifle in a vise, but anything other than a (standing is best) technique that will allow the rifle to recoil naturally will affect the regulation. DRs can be sensitive, especially those light barreled ones like most 9.3s, and 45-70s. Heavier ones seem to be less sensitive to hold. You should try handloads. | |||
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I originally had the same problem with POI being about 6" high (didn't match regulation target). I had the gunsmith put on a new lower rear sight and that worked as I wanted a lower profile (taller front sight just means more to snag on). I found my handloads (450\400) to be about the same as the factory regulation loads. I did notice that as I tried to increase velocity, the barrels eventually crossed, so pay attention on your handloads with that - always marking each barrel\shot. DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | |||
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Congratulations tomclink You got one of the good ones, and before you do anything to the sights take that bag from under the butt. That may be the reason for the high on the target. The sights being between the two barrels individual groups is what you want, and the sights can be adjusted later. I’d experiment with hand loads for a while and when you find a load you want then work on the sights. I’d try a low range load listed for a Ruger No1 with a 400 gr Speer and see if that did anything. Then slowly work up to the mid range listed. The heavier bullet with a little boost may just solve the elevation, and grouping to your liking. Once you find your load, then you work on the sights . Good luck, and welcome to the DRSS! ………………………………………………………………........................... … ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I'm not 100% sure but IIRC the one I've seen here was regulated with the Hornady "Leverloutions"(or some such) Right Ak-Stick? It was a plastic tipped light weight bullet. Maybe 325 grns? Sound right? NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Tom If anyone has mentioned this I must have missed it. It's very helpful to post two targets side by side (labeled rt and lft) when working up loads. Shoot each barrel to the appropriate target. I always add the load used on each target. When I get home I use a felt tip pen and transfer both targets and all data to a single sheet of paper keeping track of the rt/lft. If you go thru a lot of load iterations it'll make things a lot easier. It's also kinda neat to watch the groups come together as you make changes! | |||
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Thanks to all for the comments and advice. I am headed to my range tomorrow with an assortment of handloads using 300 grain Remington JHP's and SAECO cast 350 grain FPGC bullets. I will modify my shooting position to make sure I am the only thing actually touching the rifle. I will also reshoot the Hornady factory loads using the new position. Mike, you are correct. The factory regulation target says it was shot with the Hornady 325 Leverevolution ammo. These rounds are loaded in short brass using bullets with a flexible tip and spitzer shape. tomclink, DRSS | |||
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Shoot off hand or fully support the rifle so the recoil is like offhand and NOTHING but skin touching the rifle. Have fun! NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Just a word of caution,if you are going to shoot copper and cast bullets out of your gun,I would clean the barrels out when you switch from one to the other,or you will get kind of like an electroplating effect with one metal covering the other in your barrels.
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Can't wait to hear how the range session goes. Bill73, I have often used jacketed loads to "clean up" a barrel after shooting lead or black powder. Never noticed an electroplating effect, but would possibly expect this shooting lead over copper fouling. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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First, thanks to all for sharing your wisdom, and especially thanks to those who advised me concerning shooting technique. This round of testing I did with only me supporting the rifle. No contact with bags, etc. Using the factory Hornady load that the gun was regulated with I fired a 4 shot group at 50 yards alternating left and right barrels. The 4 shot group was one ragged hole. The group was a bit high and left, but I can take care of that. I expect there was some luck involved here since I know I cannot hold that close and I will be retesting to confirm repeatability but I sure was happy!! I tried a number of my handloads and all grouped very well from individual barrels. Regulation with the loads I tried was not in the league with the factory Hornady load, but I can see groups moving closer together as velocity changes so I have some good guidance for the next trip to the range. I was actually considering returning this rifle after my first disappointing outing, but thanks to your advice, I believe I have a very nice rifle that has found a home in my safe. Again, thanks to you all. tomclink, DRSS | |||
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I suggest that you get a copy of Graeme Wright's book,"Shooting the British Double Rifle". Even if your rifles not British. There's a load of info there to help you understand these beasts. It's not a bolt gun. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Well that is good news. Have you tried a 400 gr bullet? There are some great bullets in this weight range. I think if you can get the 400 to shoot you will have a great rifle for anything in North America and most anywhere else. By the way welcome to the forum. PS You will need to use a chronograph to track your velocity. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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Sounds like your rifle shoots better than the ones costing several times what it did; congratulations for sticking with it. As stated, these aren't bolt guns and can be finicky. But they are all interesting and now that you have jumped in, you will want another, bigger one. It is a disease. I too, like the 400 grainers; Remingtons for deer and when you want it to open up fast; Speers for more penetration. Everyone should have Graeme's book; I sleep with mine for many years now... | |||
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Thanks for the heads up on Graeme Wright's book. I now have a copy on order. tomclink, DRSS | |||
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