Picked up a 450ne Sabatti at SCI show and got to shoot it several times.

First time was benched at 50 yards with 3 lefts and three rights. Fixed sight used. All three shots from right barrel touching and 1 7/16" to right of center & 1 1/4" high. Left barrel printed two touching and one about 1/4 " lower
and 2 3/4 " left of center and same level as right bbl. Hornady DG Loads used. Fine bead hold used.

Second session at 100 yards. From rest ( as were first session ) Four from right barrel were 2 3/4 " right of centerline and 1 3/4 " high. Left barrell were 3 3/8" left of centerline & 2 1/2 " high.

Should do better when I get my reloading supplies and tweak the load.

Handles well and fits good. Spent shells will
drop free from chambers and triggers are good.

More info to come when I get back to range. Have not yet used the crono but will do so soon.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
Picked up a 450ne Sabatti at SCI show and got to shoot it several times.

First time was benched at 50 yards with 3 lefts and three rights. Fixed sight used. All three shots from right barrel touching and 1 7/16" to right of center & 1 1/4" high. Left barrel printed two touching and one about 1/4 " lower
and 2 3/4 " left of center and same level as right bbl. Hornady DG Loads used. Fine bead hold used.

Second session at 100 yards. From rest ( as were first session ) Four from right barrel were 2 3/4 " right of centerline and 1 3/4 " high. Left barrell were 3 3/8" left of centerline & 2 1/2 " high.

Should do better when I get my reloading supplies and tweak the load.

Handles well and fits good. Spent shells will
drop free from chambers and triggers are good.

More info to come when I get back to range. Have not yet used the crono but will do so soon.

Clayman216 you say you are shooting from a rest! How are you resting the rifle?

.Rifle was rested on my left hand which was on a large foam roll on bench & left arm was not touching the bench. Right elbow resting on foam pad on bench.

How is the weight and balance as well as the metal/wood fit?

FYI Gents, I just looked and Cabelas has a batch of 45-70's and 9.3X74R's in now.

Weight & balance : About 9 lbs plus ( I will let you know later ) Very good balance and points quickly on target ( fits me well )
Wood to metal fit is good and its a very nice double for the price, I am so far very pleased with it,

Are you shooting the factory Hornadys 480's?

Congrats on your new double.

Thanks and please don't hesitate to post more on your Sabatti.

Thank you clayman,

Is it valid to sight in/test a double off the bench? I am just asking, because I would have assumes yes - but someone this forum stated the POI and regulation will change standing vs bench shooting.

quote:

( as were first session ) Four from right barrel were 2 3/4 " right of centerline and 1 3/4 " high. Left

What is the factory regulation load for these? I would assume this is given when one purchases?

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
.Rifle was rested on my left hand which was on a large foam roll on bench & left arm was not touching the bench. Right elbow resting on foam pad on bench.

........Perfect!

The loads I was using was Hornady DG Solids - 480 gr.

The gun was factory sighted with Kynoch 480 gr.
(they use the Woodliegh bullet )

It is properf to shoot as I did. I followed advise of member here who is very experienced as well as the boo SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE by GRAEME WRIGHT> Anyone thinking of getting into a double rifle should get this book. It will save you much time, trouble & money.

The rifle weighs 10 lbs.

When you get around to reloading, Searcy's duplication of the Hornady load is 96 grns of IMR 4831 with the 480 or 500 grn slug. I use it and it works great.

I'm not sure what the Kynamco load is though. You'llneed to chrony it to duplicate it.

Thanks - I plan on using the crono next time out.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Thank you clayman,

Is it valid to sight in/test a double off the bench? I am just asking, because I would have assumes yes - but someone this forum stated the POI and regulation will change standing vs bench shooting.

No issue with either a standing or sitting bench, so long as the rifle's barrels aren't resting directly on bags.

As Clayman describes, the rifle needs to be supported by the front hand, holding the barrels. The front hand can rest on bags.

The rear hand and the butt must be free to move in recoil. I have never had an issue resting my rear elbow on a pad or rest or resting the butt on a pad or bags, or both resting on pads or bags either, so long as any bags or pads used to support the butt are well forward of the toe so that the entire rifle can move in recoil.

Developing loads that shoot to regulation in a double rifle, or shooting loads to their best potential, is all about recoil and letting the rifle recoil as it would naturally.

Since the barrels of a double rifle are off set of the center of the rifle, the right barrel wants to describe an arch up and to the right in recoil, the left up and to the left. If you were to set the rifle in a rest aimed at the target, and look through the barrels you will see that the right barrel points down and left of the POA, the left down and right. When the rifle is fired, recoil causes the barrels to move up and right or left, respectively. The time the bullets spend traveling the length of the bores, during recoil, called "barrel time", has the bullets leaving the barrels - in a perfectly regulated rifle - at the point in the arch that has the barrels "pointing" toward the POA, at the same verticel level, but with the right barrel pointing 1/2 the distance of the measurement of the distance between the centers of the bores to the right of the POA and the left the same to the left. (Obviously, barrels shot one at a time!)

In developing loads, you are trying to find the poweder, bullet, primer, (wadding for some cartridges with some powders), brass combo that makes the bullet leave each muzzle at the same point in its recoil arch that the bullet does with the loads used to regulate it. To do that, the shooter must not interfere with the recoil of the rifle and must hold, support and shoot the rifle in a manner that allows the rifle to recoil as it would if shot properly off hand.

Once the shooter/loader has developed loads that produce groups with the right and left barrels shooting the correct distance beween them, about equal to the center to center measurement of the bores at the muzzles, he should make any windage or elevation adjustments to the sights required to move the POA to the POI.

Hope this helps.

Clayman, congrats on your rifle. Sounds like the Hornaday load is a bit slow.

JPK

JPK - Thanks for your input - members here have been so helpfull - good to speak with people who share my intrests !

I would really like to see some pics of the rifle.

Look in Cabellas Gun Library.

I agree , probably better than I could do .

I saw one today in 45-70! It handled very nicely and seemed like a reasonable weight for a 45/70.

The god awful sights really blew me away even for a $3000 gun, which i know is low cost for a double. But man! The front was an unprotected plastic rod. Not fiber optics just plain red plastic. Easy to bust up and not any standard replacement. The rear was equally crappy, but looked like it might be easier to replace. Why did they do that?

There were a few minor gaps in the metal fit. And then this, absolutely awful junk imitation engraving. it almost like there is some complete lack of respect for the American buyer. Do they think we are stupid or do they know? Maybe they know, because I am tempted to get one. But these annoying details just put me off on the initial impression.

Cabelas in Hartford, if anyone else in my neighborhood is waiting for a look.

I had it in my hands about 5 minutes and another customer came over to look. It does attract attention in the library.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I saw one today in 45-70! It handled very nicely and seemed like a reasonable weight for a 45/70.

The god awful sights really blew me away even for a $3000 gun, which i know is low cost for a double. But man! The front was an unprotected plastic rod. Not fiber optics just plain red plastic. Easy to bust up and not any standard replacement. The rear was equally crappy, but looked like it might be easier to replace. Why did they do that?

There were a few minor gaps in the metal fit. And then this, absolutely awful junk imitation engraving. it almost like there is some complete lack of respect for the American buyer. Do they think we are stupid or do they know? Maybe they know, because I am tempted to get one. But these annoying details just put me off on the initial impression.

Cabelas in Hartford, if anyone else in my neighborhood is waiting for a look.

I had it in my hands about 5 minutes and another customer came over to look. It does attract attention in the library.

"Why did they do that ?"


Because they are building the rifles to a price to satisfy everyone's continued calling for cheaper DR's.

You get what you pay for in this world. If you don't like it,
go and buy a Merkel, Chaouis et al. You will never make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear.


"And then this, absolutely awful junk imitation engraving. it almost like there is some complete lack of respect for the American buyer. Do they think we are stupid or do they know? Maybe they know, because I am tempted to get one. But these annoying details just put me off on the initial impression."


They think you are stupid and they know that you will buy them anyway because they are cheap. If it's cheap, it will find a market in the US.


Sorry to be blunt, but let's get realistic about the whole thing.
Same as the Baikal / Remington's, Steven's Bolt Actions and a few others.

quote:

Why did they do that ?"

Because they are building the rifles to a price to satisfy everyone's continued calling for cheaper DR's.

You get what you pay for in this world. If you don't like it,
go and buy a Merkel, Chaouis et al. You will never make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear.

I know what you are saying, but the gun would look so much better with normal sights and no engraving. Browning does not junk up their double shotguns like that. Built to a price is one thing but bad/stupid taste is another. I seen better "taste" in an honest, $200, H&R single shot than one of these pimped out sat night whores.

That front sight will not last in the field. Makes no sense at all. You got to it too believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Why did they do that ?"

Because they are building the rifles to a price to satisfy everyone's continued calling for cheaper DR's.

You get what you pay for in this world. If you don't like it,
go and buy a Merkel, Chaouis et al. You will never make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear.

I know what you are saying, but the gun would look so much better with normal sights and no engraving. Browning does not junk up their double shotguns like that. Built to a price is one thing but bad/stupid taste is another. I seen better "taste" in an honest, $200, H&R single shot than one of these pimped out sat night whores.

Agree with you.

Sometimes trying to "tart up" a good to look better than it is just doesn't work
and as you say, they would be better off leaving it plain. Like you, I do sometimes
wonder about the taste of some of makers.

Simple enough, pay more, get more. Based on what I see and hear, the Sabatti is a helluva deal for the money. Chintzy Pedersoli double hammer .45-70s fly off the used gun list for the same price. New ones are $5000 or more. No reasonable person should expect a new $3000 double ($5000 for express cartridges) to be a Rigby. I, too, think the rifle would look better with no engraving, but that is an easy fix and a little feedback might get that done. Looking on Cabela's I see several different front sights, but all look to be easily replaced, and, while not traditional, the fiber optics on most of the ones I see work very well.

quote:

Looking on Cabela's I see several different front sights, but all look to be easily replaced, and, while not traditional, the fiber optics on most of the ones I see work very well.

Not to nit pick, but; the Sabatti sites are not fiber optic they appear simple plastic. And worse, I dont think they can be replaced at home. I could be wrong or eventually someone will figure how to replace the sites.

I gave the clerk my views. He nodded and shrugged. He had no suggestions on site changes. FWIW?

Would you suggest another route to offer feedback? I am game.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Looking on Cabela's I see several different front sights, but all look to be easily replaced, and, while not traditional, the fiber optics on most of the ones I see work very well.

Not to nit pick, but; the Sabatti sites are not fiber optic they appear simple plastic. And worse, I dont think they can be replaced at home. I could be wrong or eventually someone will figure how to replace the sites.

I gave the clerk my views. He nodded and shrugged. He had no suggestions on site changes. FWIW?

Would you suggest another route to offer feedback? I am game.

According to my reading, the express (more expensive rifle) does not have fiber optic sights. However, Cabela's describes the basic version (45-70 and 9.3x74R) as having and I quote:

quote:

Sights/Scope: Quarter rib with standing leaf rear fiber-optic sight. Ramp-style fiber optic front sight

However, like anything, it is what it is. Changing sights is hardly rocket science for a decent gunsmith.

AFA feedback goes, talking to the average clerk at Cabela's, or any of the similar outfits, will get you nowhere, few of them know much about guns and almost none of them have any real pull higher up. I'd suggest writing/emailing the HQ and telling the buyer what you like and don't like about the Sabatti double, or calling and asking to speak to him personally to try to special order one without engraving. Since it looks to me like the engraving is roll stamped, or possibly laser etched, at least on the basic rifle, then leaving it off should be no problem.

I'd think just a minimal border of handcut engraving, as has been done in various ways on thousands of lower end English double shotguns, for one example, which would cost at most $150 or so in Italy would be substantially better looking, or, as mentioned, none at all.

Completely unrelated but I bought an interesting hammer double 12 ga shotgun a few months back. It was sold on GB as a Beretta but after examining it closer yesterday as I was cleaning it to put it up out of the way (makers stamps were not squarely placed and hard to read), I found that it was a Sabatti. Hard to tell but I'd put the gun at 50 years old or more. Tight and feels good, haven't shot it yet.