quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
First of all, I'd prefer a Hartmann & Weiss double over a Holland & Holland Royal double.

This was posted in a recent Big Bore thread; I agree with Trax!
Any other opinions?

http://www.hartmannandweiss.co...nn-weiss-katalog.pdf

However, the thought of a 577NE droplock from Westley Richards sure does invoke memories of Hemingway's double...

You have to have handled both to know.

I love the H&H double for a whole variety of reasons
and think it is the epitome of what a DR should be,
however having handled a few Italian one's, I think
you need to handle more to know.

.

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
First of all, I'd prefer a Hartmann & Weiss double over a Holland & Holland Royal double.

This was posted in a recent Big Bore thread; I agree with Trax!
Any other opinions?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
You have to have handled both to know.

I love the H&H double for a whole variety of reasons
and think it is the epitome of what a DR should be,
however having handled a few Italian one's, I think
you need to handle more to know.

.

As many know I have stated on many occasions that I simply do not like H&H double rifles! I know this will sound like sour grapes to the purists here, but it is not! It is simply a personal preference on my part! In fact, there are several double rifles in the $10K to $20K price-range I like far better, and would buy over the H&H even if all were the same price!

I have to agree with all of you guys to some extent! What I mean by that statement is, H&H is a top contender for the best-loved brand in the world for everything from bolt rifles to double rifles of all grades! I will say, however, most who speak of H&H, when a double rifle is mentioned in a conversation, do so because that is the NAME they have heard most often. That doesn’t mean they know anything about double rifles or what constitutes quality. I’m not, for one minute, saying H&H is not quality, only that because the brand is so well known people who wouldn’t know one way or the other simply ASSUME it is the BEST. I simply do not agree!

Things like H&H double rifles are very over priced for even the very good quality of their product! It is the NAME that justifies the price to most actual buyers of H&H doubles, a price which is far above the quality.

H&H Royals could be sold at less than half the price, and still yield a handsome profit, but that would be admitting that the top H&H is no better then the top of some other makers! Though the price on H&H doubles is high, it pales when compared to Purdey’s prices. The folks that are buying H&H, and Purdey rifles are among a group of people who don’t need to ask the price, and that price is based on the exclusivity of owning something very few others own, more than the mechanical fitting and working value of the rifle, IMO!
....................................................

H&W if you've got the dollars, otherwise a Piotti.
http://www.piotti.com/en/prodo...ema-holland-holland/

Fetched 88K British Pound on the used market. (cal 9,3x74R)




Piotti

[/QUOTE] H&H Royals could be sold at less than half the price, and still yield a handsome profit,[/QUOTE]


Simply not true.

For some of the best I have always like Max Ern's stuff. I have met Max his son and wife Evelyn. They are super folks, and do all the work in house.

If I had the cash and were in the market. I'd have them do a Rigby style rising bite rifle. He has some of the best case colors I've seen. May not be the best ROI but fit and finish will be top notch!

http://max-ern.com/english/gravuren.htm


For ROI it will be hard to match H&H and WR. I'm a WR man and before I cash it in, I will have a bespoke WR made for me.

Ed

That Piotti has to be about the most beautiful double I have ever seen.
Certaintly out of my league, but wondering what does it cost? 75K?

The photos of those two guns prove the point in my first post.

I love H&H DR's and think they are the top of the tree but Both of those look superb pieces of craftmanship and every bit as good as an H&H. Holding and shooting them would be the decider as the Balance of H&H DR's is second to none IMHO at present.

I'd have no problem owning both of those.

Interesting how so many companies have copied H&H in style (and of course the Spanish for copying the English Boxlock as well).

.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
That Piotti has to be about the most beautiful double I have ever seen.

Have a look at some Holland's then, exactly the same.

And Purdey's (except they tend to have the "understated" engraving like H&W.

.

quote:

And Purdey's (except they tend to have the "understated" engraving like H&W.

Purdey engraving can also be quite grotesque....

http://www.ammoland.com/wp-con...LT-ACTION-RIFLES.jpg

Personally I regard the rising-bite Rigby sidelock as the absolute top of the tree insofar as double rifle actions are concerned.

Secondly a screw-grip Webley with Southgate ejectors.

I think both of those beat a H&H by some margin, but that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
Personally I regard the rising-bite Rigby sidelock as the absolute top of the tree insofar as double rifle actions are concerned.

Secondly a screw-grip Webley with Southgate ejectors.

I think both of those beat a H&H by some margin, but that's just me.

Are you talking looks, strength or ??????

I don't think a Webley looks that good as an action compared to H&H, H&W or the Piotti above.

I agree the Rigby BRTB on the other hand is a beauty but not really considered as currently made by Rigby.

.

I think here under best DR is more talked about cosmetics. There are no targets shown. What makes it for a sense when I have a good looking impressive gun which produces a 6inch shot group at 100. Most manufacturers give a target of two or max four shots.

The specification speaks about 6 shots (3 from each barrel) with out cooling at 100.

It can be put a nice wood and engraving on gun that does not shoot at all.

So I think the discussion must go a bit more in direction accuracy.

Form Ziegenhahn I would have got a guarantee of 6 shots with in 6cm at 100 (I have not bought it). Zimmerman does not gave me any guarantee but the target then showed 4shots 3cm at 70m. The 5cm can be hold at 100m easy.

So what is with H+H, Purdey etc. no targets results here.

quote:

Originally posted by bunoushcu:
I think here under best DR is more talked about cosmetics. There are no targets shown. What makes it for a sense when I have a good looking impressive gun which produces a 6inch shot group at 100. Most manufacturers give a target of two or max four shots.

The specification speaks about 6 shots (3 from each barrel) with out cooling at 100.

It can be put a nice wood and engraving on gun that does not shoot at all.

So I think the discussion must go a bit more in direction accuracy.

Form Ziegenhahn I would have got a guarantee of 6 shots with in 6cm at 100 (I have not bought it). Zimmerman does not gave me any guarantee but the target then showed 4shots 3cm at 70m. The 5cm can be hold at 100m easy.

So what is with H+H, Purdey etc. no targets results here.

The above is a valid point! Take all the best brands, and take away all the glitz, and just install good quality stable wood, and clean metal finish. Then find which shoots best, which is strongest in design, and I believe what you will find is there is little difference between the good brand names as far as usability, fit and finish, dependability of most good maker's double rifles.

This is not limited to the Britt doubles either. There are many countries that have built very good double rifles over the last 100 years. Some little one-man shops have come off the bench with some very fine double rifles, Names that most have never even heard of!

Still like anything else name recognition is a moneymaker! The names one considers be best, will allow you to justify a higher price even when both it and some others may be equal in practical terms!

All anyone here is saying is because a name is more recognizable doesn't necessarily make that rifle better than one that is not as well known!

Anyone who would think a Blaser S-2 is in the same class as the plainest H&H double ever built is daffy, but there are doubles that are just as good in practical terms as any H&H, sans the decoration, both left with servicable wood, and steel finish!

If a double is built properly in practical terms, the only difference is GLITZ and NAME!

In the end the target will decide!

quote:

Originally posted by bunoushcu:
So what is with H+H, Purdey etc. no targets results here.

Maybe because no one who owns a Holland has posted ???

My 500/465 Holland was one of the best shooting DR's I have owned
and Graeme Wright even mentioned it in his book as being so.

H&H give test targets with their guns. I've seen them.
You can even be there when the gun is regulated and
shoot it yourself if you want.

I am sure Purdey provide test targets as well.


One reason H&H are often referred to as being The Best is they really did produce a lot of superb DR's and were renowned for it the world over, well before others came on board.

As such, I think people see them a lot more, in people's hand, for sale, at gun shows etc and they do stand out.

.

I agree with Mac.

I am a hunter, not an art collector. All that engraving is very pretty, but quite useless. Gorgeous wood is -- well -- gorgeous, but not any more functional than a good stick of straight grained walnut (I am not talking the junk on many commercial rifles today).

I'm thinking about having a rifle built with absolutely no engraving, not even scroll, color case, no silver, and a good plain, yet attractive, straight grained stock.

The horror.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I agree with Mac.

I am a hunter, not an art collector. All that engraving is very pretty, but quite useless. Gorgeous wood is -- well -- gorgeous, but not any more functional than a good stick of straight grained walnut (I am not talking the junk on many commercial rifles today).

I'm thinking about having a rifle built with absolutely no engraving, not even scroll, color case, no silver, and a good plain, yet attractive, straight grained stock.

The horror.

No, not horror, It's still a bespoke DR to an extent in that it is built
to your specs for you. one of my nicest DR's is a Boxlock WR in 500/465
and it is a plain Jane DR.

We must remember that their are many different markets within the DR market.
Hunter, hunter / Collector, Collector Shooter, Pure Collector and many more
and each one has their own set of criteria.

Life would be boring otherwise !!!

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Maybe because no one who owns a Holland has posted ???

My 500/465 Holland was one of the best shooting DR's I have owned
and Graeme Wright even mentioned it in his book as being so...and they do stand out.

Nigel, I totally agree. I am most fortunate to be the current caretaker of a H&H .240 flanged, .500 Express and recently .500/.465. Hollands are the double rifles from which others are judged IMO. As Ken Owen has told me, "they all shoot well unless they've been dicked with".

I look at it this way. The rifle that shoots where I want it too all the time.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500N:
Nigel, I totally agree. I am most fortunate to be the current caretaker of a H&H .240 flanged, .500 Express and recently .500/.465. Hollands are the double rifles from which others are judged IMO. As Ken Owen has told me, "they all shoot well unless they've been dicked with".

I agree that H&H are and have been what others are judged by, at least in the higher end DR's (they didn't make that many low end one's - and I think low end DR's are compared to Webley Screw Grips or PHV1's anyway).

H&H made it's reputation on DR's (and Sidelock Shotguns), in terms of quality, balance, fit, finish, shootability AND MORE IMPORTANTLY that the guns shot where they were supposed to.

Therefore H&H has the most to lose - and nearly lost in during the late 50's, 60's and early 70's when I thnk they did produce guns that were not that good by the above criteria.


I will add that I think the Rigby Sidelock (Rising third bite, NOT the Webley action one's) and the WR Droplock are up there as well.

.

I do not own a DR & know little about them though I am absolutely besotted by them.

Having said that, Sinner / generalwars has said often that H&H double rifles above 500 cal tend to shoot off face within 50 shots. He claimed that he even discussed with the H&H chairman. Last year he bought a new wesley Richards drop lock in 600NE.

I have had the pleasure of handling H&H, WR, Alex Henry, Webly & Jeffery doubles - some finihed or labeled by other gunhouses. All of them handle far better than the factory made German, Italian & french doubles.

For the average guy like me, jsut taking a ride around the block in a nice Rolls Royce would be a dream come true & so also the pleasure of handling and shooting some of those rifles - thanks to some generous & obliging friends.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I agree with Mac.

I am a hunter, not an art collector. All that engraving is very pretty, but quite useless. Gorgeous wood is -- well -- gorgeous, but not any more functional than a good stick of straight grained walnut (I am not talking the junk on many commercial rifles today).

I'm thinking about having a rifle built with absolutely no engraving, not even scroll, color case, no silver, and a good plain, yet attractive, straight grained stock.

The horror.

Give Mr Searcy a call. His Field Grade is exactly what you are looking for. I never heard one complaint concerning poor accuracy from a Searcy.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

No, not horror, It's still a bespoke DR to an extent in that it is built
to your specs for you. one of my nicest DR's is a Boxlock WR in 500/465
and it is a plain Jane DR.

We must remember that their are many different markets within the DR market.
Hunter, hunter / Collector, Collector Shooter, Pure Collector and many more
and each one has their own set of criteria.

Life would be boring otherwise !!!

.

Absolutely true, There are several different criteria to consider when buying a double rifle. First and foremost is what YOUR main use for the rifle is! If you are a REAL collector, then H&H will be at the top of your list. This may also be the case if you are a collector/shooter. If however you are not a serious collector, but are a serious hunter of espacially dangerous game, then I doubt you will be serious collector of rifles that cost as much as even well worn H&H double rifles! Espacially if you are one who must travel in airplanes to Africa! In that case one will usually be drawn to NEW double rifle that can be easily replaced if lost,damaged or stolen in transit, and cost less that two major safaris!

I once owned a very rare Colt pistol, a "Patterson Colt"! I sold it to a real Colt collector who wanted it becase it was rare, and the fact that none of his fellow colectors had one! The pistol was rare BECAUSE it was not very well designed and never sold well, so was discontinued after only a few were made.

I'm not saying that H&H rifles are not well designed or that very few were made, but in many cases the reason people pay so much for them is not as much because they are so much better than some others, but because of the prestige of being one of the only kids on the block that owns one! Nothing wrong with that, it is a valid reason.

In my case I like WR doubles more than H&H, but that is a personal thing, not because of price or prestige, but simply because I like them better, and If I could afford the H&H made to order for me, I would still have a WR rifle made for me!

IMO, none of this says anything bad about H&H double rifles! It is simply a matter of what one wants to own,and/or hunt with! In the hunting field a Heym 88B would do fine! I've certainly hunted with less pricy doubles than even the Heym.

Everyone has a preference in mates, cars, houses, and toys, H&H just isn't MY cup of tea that's all!

quote:

Best Double-Guns

You double rifle buffs can argue all you want but the answer is easy for me. My preference is the Paradox gun and there is only one company making those.


The 'Round Action Sidelock' 'Paradox'

In all fairness, it must be pointed out that Gerhard Hartmann considers Peter Nelson the best SxS builder in the world.
Peter had a reputation at Purdey at taking longer than the bean counters wanted.
He was more dedicated to getting the firearms finished to his own personal high standard rather than trying to have it finished within Purdeys higher profit time frame.
Non the less, Peter stayed with Purdey for a good number of years[1953-71], moving on to H&W [1971-89]
in his "obsessive quest for perfection" Nelson has been quoted as saying he spends 900hrs getting a SxS to the engraving stage, 1200hrs for an U/O.

This is a good read on Hartmann & Weiss: http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/presse/10-01-ss.pdf

I know this is heresy especially on this forum but I don't really LIKE side lock doubles. Don't particularly like the feel and definitely don't like the looks. This goes for rifles or shotguns. Have handled a few of all the top lines, H&H,WR,Piotti and I actually prefer a David McKay Brown round action to all others. I met him once and handled all the guns he had there and he had a 470 that given the finances I would have over all others. I'm unsure if there is any finer quality gun made by anyone. I think when you get to firearms of this quality and price range it boils down to personal likes and how much snob appeal you require. It's like cars, if you ask the average car person what is the best car they would probably say Rolls Royce and fastest they would say something like Lambroghini or Ferrari but I would venture to say few would have even heard of my choice which is a Bristol Fighter. I would venture to say that there are many single builders and a few companies that equal H&H for quality and mechanical excellance that don't demand the extraordinarily high price an H&H does. These are personal opinions but then most of the responses ARE that.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I think when you get to firearms of this quality and price range it boils down to personal likes and how much snob appeal you require.

I agree.

And re liking a DMcB Trigger Plate RA over a Sidelock, that is the beauty
of these things, everyone likes something different !

Current production? I'd go with the H & W...
...BUT, if it was "anything goes", a pre-WWII H&H would be my choice hands-down...

...That Piotti somebody posted is really nice, BUT, why not sideclips and a hidden third fastener...Looks like a shotgun as is!

For me it would be a Westley Richards A&D detachable lock, although I do particularly admire the McKay Brown round action and also the Fanzoj boxlock...

every time I read a thread like this I get lost on fasteners and rising this and all the things, is there a good ILLUSTRATED idiot's guide to double rifles?

second question, barring a lottery win a doulbe is something reserved for retirement for me (30 years away), so which ones are truly good but still reasonably priced (I'm thinking the 10-20k level)?

It seems to me engraving can be equal on any of them, as that is the engraver not the manufacturer. sometimes I see doubles that look blockish or have hard lines, and wouldn't like them at any price point.

Thanks guys.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
every time I read a thread like this I get lost on fasteners and rising this and all the things, is there a good ILLUSTRATED idiot's guide to double rifles?
Red

Hallowel & Co has a web site that has a good list, with I think some illustrations that explains a fair bit.

The other way is to READ Closely the descriptions of guns on some web sites and then match the description to the picture. ie "Long Strap over Comb". You might ask WTF is that. When you see it on a gun, the metal strap extending from behind the action all the way along the stock, you understand.

quote:

second question, barring a lottery win a doulbe is something reserved for retirement for me (30 years away), so which ones are truly good but still reasonably priced (I'm thinking the 10-20k level)?

Red

Heym, Merkel, V-C, Chapuis and I am sure others will add a few more. Plenty of guns in the 10-20k range.

I have been particularly impressed with the VC's lately - see the thread on this forum.


BTW - Good questions.

.

I was thinking of sidelocks, the crème de la crème. But there are some very good boxlocks being made. I am particularly impressed by the strong design and workmanship of the Verney-Carron custom shop guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I was thinking of sidelocks, the crème de la crème. But there are some very good boxlocks being made. I am particularly impressed by the strong design and workmanship of the Verney-Carron custom shop guns.

I agree sidelocks are the creme de la creme.

However I think the world sees the WR Droplock and the Trigger Plate Round Action as in the same category as Sidelocks - some auction houses obviously do as they list them alongside the Sidelocks.

.