"An Accidental Purchase - Small Double Rifle - Miller & Val Greiss 10x47R cal."

Hello all,

I just purchased another Miller & Val. Greiss Double rifle from the last Rock Island Auction. This was an "accidental purchase". I say "accidental" because I never intended to buy this, I simply "tagged" it with the minimum opening bid so I could track the results. Since I already had a Miller & Val. Greiss double rifle, I was curious to see what this one would bring. Much to my surprise, (delight ?) no one else bid.

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Specs for the rifle are as follows:

Swing-Lever Double Hammer Double Rifle - Non-Rebounding Hammers - Engraved Receiver & Back-Action Side Locks - Barrels marked "LS" "12762" - Locks marked "Miller & Val Greiss / Munchen" - Gold Inlaid Decorative Breech Bands - 6 lbs 13 oz - 13-3/8" LOP - 24-13/16" Barrels - 1 Standing 1 Folding Leaf Rear Site & Pop-up Tang Site - Set Triggers (both) - Horn Swing-Lever - Spur Trigger Guard w/ Pierced & Scrolled Dark Horn Finger Rest - Steel Engraved Trap Butt Plate holds 3 rounds - Sling Swivels

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The rifle is chambered in 10x47R caliber, a cartridge that is typically a target cartridge. The ballistics when loaded with 55g of 3Fg black powder and a 265g bullet, are similar to that of a 38-55 cartridge, and nearly identical to that of the 40-50 Sharps bottle-neck. With the rifle being of German origin, it was likely intended for small to medium game of the region.

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No loading data is available for this cartridge as most German black powder rifles of the 1870s were "one-of" with custom cartridges only being available from the rifle's builder. Determining the correct bullet weight for 10x47R was a challenge. The bores slugged at .398 - .399 inches. I was not able to find "exact" brass, but did purchase some 9.5x47R Bertram brass. With help from the German Gun Collectors forum, bullet weight was approximated at 177g - 308g but no additional data is available to use as a guide in determining what bullet weight and velocity are correct for this rifle in order to have it regulate.

Quote: ".......(German gunbuilder) designed his own rifle cartridge and load, just enough different from the one of his competitor next door to prevent interchangeability. They also made their own bullet moulds. ........... R. Dixon lists three 10x47R case shapes, ........... Later catalgs offered factory swaged lead bullets .......... in many different shapes and weights, ranging from 11.5 g = 177 gr to 20.0 g = 308 gr , but most were in the 230 – 250 gr range. As there was no standard bullet shape, diameter or weight........."

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To start the loading process, I expanded the necks and loaded 210g 41 cal pistol bullets to fire-form the cases to the rifle's chambers.

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After all the cases were fire-formed, I proceeded to develop loads. Fortunately, I have a Corbin swage press and dies for .400 caliber. I can make bullets from 100g up to 450g. I started with 210g bullets and worked my way up. The 210g bullets shot one hole clusters for each barrel, but 1-1/2" apart, having crossed. Increasing the bullet weight brought the clusters closer togeter, but still crossing. I tested loads with AA5744, IMR4198, and 3Fg powder and I fired approx. 60 rounds in developing the final load.

Picture below shows the .400" dia swaged lead bullet that I tapped into the muzzle to check bore & groove dia, and the .410" dia 200g pistol bullet that I used for fire-forming. To the right is one of my .400" dia 265g swaged half-jacket bullets, and 3 cartridges loaded with those 265g swaged bullets. Because I didn't have reloading dies, the fire-formed cases were neck-sized only in a laborious process that involved five stages; first, depriming and repriming by hand, then using a 41 mag seater die, next, a 41 mag sizing die, and then a 41 Long Colt sizing die. Finally, a 41 mag seating die was used to seat the bullets. It takes about two hours to swage bullets and load 20 cartridges.

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Here are the results of my last testing. I've been shooting on our 50-foot indoor range because the weather has been bad here in Wisconsin. All shooting was done standing, from a bench, resting on my elbows. Its not the way I generally work up a load for one of my double rifles, but this will do until we get a nice day so I can shoot outside at 50 yards. Mathematically, 50 feet is 1/3 of 50 yards and expected 50 yard group size should be 3 times my 50 foot group size. We shall see.

As a base-line, I loaded 4 cases with 55g FFFg and a 265g half-jacket bullet. The velocity measured 1215 fps with a 11 fps spread from low to high. I'm guessing that is pretty close to what this rifle was regulated to shoot because the 4-shot group went into a 1-hole group that measured a 3/8" spread. I couldn't really tell which were the rights and which were the lefts, but I don't think it matters. I do recall that the very first shot was the one that went dead-center.

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I also loaded 4 cases with my developed best load of 26g AA5744 and the 265g half-jacket bullets. The velocity measured for these was 1345 fps with a 3 fps spread from low to high. Those also shot into a 1-hole group, a bit smaller, and a little higher and to the left of center. That group measured a 1/4" spread. And, like the black powder group, I couldn't tell which were the rights and which were the lefts.

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Next time I shoot this rifle it will be on the outdoor 50 yard range. However, I won't be shooting any more black powder, too much mess, too much smoke, and way too much clean-up time. Besides, the AA5744 load has 6 pounds less recoil, that being 10.9 ft/lbs vs. 16.9 ft/lbs. and 190 ft/lbs more muzzle energy. (1055 ft/lbs vs 865 ft/lbs) A double rifle with only 10.9 ft/lbs of recoil is a real treat compared to what I've been shooting lately. That's less recoil than an ordinary 243 hunting rifle.

All in all, I'm pretty happy how this accidental purchase turned out.

As always, your comments are welcome.

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Although this rifle is not intended for hunting BIG GAME, its plenty good enough for hunting Wisconsin White Tail Deer and other smaller game. .....

.... and perfect for hunting the Ferocious Rabbits found in the Wisconsin North Woods. . . aka . "Bunny-Horribilous"

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nice find in a classic german style!

Great shooting gun

What a fantastic tale! And kudos for figuring out so neatly how to feed it, with obviously great results!

I was fortunate enough years ago to be tasked with developing loads for a M&vG top lever double that turned out to be chambered in 10x50R Sauer, a straight case based on the .360 2-1/4" / 9,3x72R family. As with your new double, it shot equally well and to the sights.

Major congrats!

Obviously a piece of junk which you should send to me for disposal, along with 100 rounds of your best load...

quote:

Originally posted by wildmansix:
nice find in a classic german style!

Hello wildansix

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, this Miller & Val. Greiss, 10x47R double rifle (above) has a style similar to my other Miller & Val. Greiss, 11.6x65R double rifle with a Double Martini Falling Block action. (below)

http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/1001010142

What about trying a duplex load?
The loads you have are obviously working really well, but if the blackpowder is a real turn-off, I would suggest starting with a 5% smokeless load of 5744 under the balance blackpowder, and working the loads up/down as necessary. That little bit of smokeless takes away most of the fouling created by the blackpowder, while keeping the pressures fairly moderate.
This is the recipe I used to regulate my 577/500 BPE and I never looked back. I still have to clean it more than when I used straight smokeless, but it is quite bearable.

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Originally posted by Bill73:
Great shooting gun

Hello Bill73

Thanks for the reply

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Originally posted by bpesteve:
What a fantastic tale! And kudos for figuring out so neatly how to feed it, with obviously great results!.....
Major congrats!

Hello pbesteve

Thanks for the reply.

I'm starting to get the hang of loading for obscure calibers like this.

Very neat.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Obviously a piece of junk which you should send to me for disposal, along with 100 rounds of your best load...

Hello Jefffive

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep your name, just in case. But I only have 20 rounds.

Bucstix forget Jeffive. I have a much more gracious offer. Send the rifle with the 20 loads, .400 bullet swaging dies, and I pay the shipping and handling! And don't worry, this won't hurt at all. Packy

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Obviously a piece of junk which you should send to me for disposal, along with 100 rounds of your best load...

Hello Jefffive

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep your name, just in case. But I only have 20 rounds.

Just because I'm a nice guy I'm willing to wait until you can get some more loaded. No hurry, a couple weeks will be fine...