Howdy,

I recently purchased a Searcy .470 NE. I was instructed to purchase loads specificly regulated for it from Superior ammunition. I contacted them and they sent me 20 softs and 20 solids in the "Searcy Load". I have fairly extensive experience shooting big bore rifles, and this ammo is like nothing I have ever shot. It is like the finger of God presses down on me each time I pull the trigger. The recoil is tremendous. Much more than any .470 I have ever shot before. I went ahead and took the weapon and said ammunition to Africa. I let my PH shoot both the rifle and the ammo. The ammo we shot both in my new .470 and his Heym .470. He even agreed that the recoil was exceptionaly massive. I decidewd to see if the recoil was any different in his Heym .470. The gun double discharged! I was hit so hard I really didn't know what had occurred. It was not a "Boo-Booom" but one solid "Whooooom!" The rifle completely rotated in my grip and the opening lever split my forehead open. The next experience with the doubles was a quick jump out and whack a girrafe for lion bait. I quickly gave the girrafe both barrels from the Searcy, and realized the center rib with the end sight on it seperated from the barrels! Here are my questions. First, have I been the victim of a cruel prank? Second, are all of the "Searcy Loads" super modified to the extreme, or is this some type of mistake by Superior Ammunition with these specific boxes. Has anyone else had similar experiences with either?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Has anyone else had similar experiences with either?

Not me - but "gunsmith" and MS did:

https://forums.cabelas.com/arc...ndex.php/t-3653.html

how fast do they shoot?

also did the loads regulate well?

I have an idea why this is happening, and this is the second time I've heard the same thing this year with Superior ammo!

If you have any of this ammo left I would break down a couple (soft & solid) and weigh the powder charges. Also I'd be interested in knowing what bullets types were used in this ammo! If the solids were mono-metal, which is what I suspect, and/or the softs are solid shank bullets like the X-bullets, These things somtimes raise the chamber pressures to the stars, and may be the reason for the seperation of the rib! Also you need to very carfully check your barrels for OSR! (Over Stressed Rifleing) I would not shoot any more of this ammo in any rifle, because IMO, there is certainly something amiss!

I would certainly like to hear more detailed information on this happening, as it comes to you!

Mac,
So you're thinking that they developed loads with standard cup and core bullets that met specifications and simply substituted monometals and solid-shank softs with the same charge?

I was called last Saturday and informed of this. Before you guys go off on a monometal tangent,I doubt very seriously that this is the case here. In 30 years of monometal use in my rifes there hasn't been one case of OSR or any ill effects from using them. My loads for use by Superior is this: 106 grs IMR4831 with a 500gr. soft bullet. I have informed smarterthanu thru a good friend to send the rifle to me with the ammo. But I was informed that he left the ammo in Africa. I don't know at this time what the load or bullets were.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Mac,
So you're thinking that they developed loads with standard cup and core bullets that met specifications and simply substituted monometals and solid-shank softs with the same charge?

No Doc, IMO, there is no need for certain mono-metal bullets in a double rifle at all! Some are designed right, and some are not. To my way of seeing this the pressures were over the top and there could be more than one reason for it! I would love to have a couple of these cartridges to break down for my self! But once we have more info from the owner of this rifle, some things may come to light! As you suggest, the substitution of different bullets with the same charge could certainly be one cause, however!

This is the reason I handload for all my rifles, but especially for my double rifles!

Howdy,

I will answer questions to the best of my abbility.

I do not own a chrono so I do not know how fast they were traveling. I only shot them free hand or on sticks,so I do not know how well they may have been regulated. I could consistantly hit within an 8 inch circle at 50 meters.

They were supposed to be Woodliegh solids and softs. I did shoot some of the softs into a log at the farm. They would basicly explode on impact.

One thing I thought of when I got back home that I did not think of looking for when it happened was whether the firing pins struck both cartridges in the double discharge. I believe all the empty brass is still there so I will have my buddy check and see whether all the primers are struck on the leftover brass. I am not shooting anymore of this ammo.

I will call Mr Searcy today about getting weapon repaired. It will not surprise me if there are other problems discovered once he dives into it.

Much Thanks guys,

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
One thing I thought of when I got back home that I did not think of looking for when it happened was whether the firing pins struck both cartridges in the double discharge. I believe all the empty brass is still there so I will have my buddy check and see whether all the primers are struck on the leftover brass. I am not shooting anymore of this ammo.


Ben

Im pretty sure you did not cook off a round if that is what you are thinking.....

The remaining ammo, as stated by Butch and others, should have been brought back for examination. If it was all left in Africa then there is little that can be done to factually evaluate what occurred. Too bad, but it sounds like we will never know. Everything said is now only anecdotal.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Im pretty sure you did not cook off a round if that is what you are thinking.....

Agree.


Though this whole thing sounds very troubling.

Searcy's post re the POWDER Load doesn't seem to far off the mark, of course NOT knowing the bullet doesn't help.

.

smarterthanu,

You need to notify the person that you left the ammo with, to not shoot it until it has been checked out.

465h&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
smarterthanu,

You need to notify the person that you left the ammo with, to not shoot it until it has been checked out.

465h&H

Not to shoot it - period.

Not worth the risk. I would ask him to pull it and then tell
smarterthanu what the bullet is.

.

I will see if I can get my hands on some of the ammo that is still loaded. It will take time if at all possible and I will notify yall if I get it back. I would probably need help with the analysis since yall seem much better educated at this science plus it sounds like I will need some access to equipment that I do not have.

In the mean time I will notify my friends not to shoot any of this ammo.

Ben, call back and leave your #. Only talk slower.

Butch's load of 106 grains of IMR 4831 and a 500 grain soft is the load I have used in all my pressure trace tests with the 470. I will say this is a very good load and operates with every bullet tried in the tests with no ill effects. This load I have shot for years in both a Searcy and Chapius doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Im pretty sure you did not cook off a round if that is what you are thinking.....

Agree.


Though this whole thing sounds very troubling.

Searcy's post re the POWDER Load doesn't seem to far off the mark, of course NOT knowing the bullet doesn't help.

.

500N If the load he got was what Butch listed for his rifles, but it seems evident that something is not right with this load! One of Bucth's doubles doesn't come apart for no reason, something got real agressive in that ammo.
We will know a lot more once Butch has a chance to look the thing over!

Mac

I agree. Nothing wrong with the Searcy rifles.

Apart from not knowing the bullet, a couple of possible ideas as to what it could be ?

1. Wrong size bullets ?
2. Wrong powder ?
3. Different primers (although even though different primers can and will increase
pressure, I couldn't see them going that high considering they are prob Fed 215's or such ?

Any thoughts ?

.

My guess is wrong powder and/or the wrong amount. It should have been noticed at the range before the trip and corrected at that point.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
My guess is wrong powder and/or the wrong amount. It should have been noticed at the range before the trip and corrected at that point.

We don't have that powder here in Aust so correct me if I am wrong but 106gns that powder shouldn't leave too much space, is that correct ?

And even increasing it, how much more could have been added to cause such an increase in recoil ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
My guess is wrong powder and/or the wrong amount. It should have been noticed at the range before the trip and corrected at that point.

We don't have that powder here in Aust so correct me if I am wrong but 106gns that powder shouldn't leave too much space, is that correct ?

And even increasing it, how much more could have been added to cause such an increase in recoil ?

.

500N the same amount of powder, but the wrong powder of a faster burn rate would certainly raise pressures drasticlly. The load Butch uses in his 470NE doubles is not hot at all, nor does it need to be! I think we will find it was the ammo!

500,
I don't load the 470 but based on the case for my 500 that load should fill the void.That load with H4831sc is listed in G. Wrights book so it should be good to go.
My bet is someone screwed up BIG TIME on the type of powder used. Hopefully some of the rounds can be returned to be examined in detail.
Until then we're just 'armchair quarterbacking'.
Hopefully Mr Searcy can repair the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
500,
I don't load the 470 but based on the case for my 500 that load should fill the void.That load with H4831sc is listed in G. Wrights book so it should be good to go.
My bet is someone screwed up BIG TIME on the type of powder used. Hopefully some of the rounds can be returned to be examined in detail.
Until then we're just 'armchair quarterbacking'.

" Until then we're just 'armchair quarterbacking'."

Half the fun !!!!



Yes, I thought it was about 4831sc, same as i use - i just don't have my ref books handy.

I wonder if someone didn't use ADI2009 or heaven forbid, ADI2208
- I think you have both over there.

2208 would go off with a bang !!!

Thankfully smarterthanyou is basicly all right.

He didn't mention if the giraffe survived the ordeal though!

quote:

He didn't mention if the giraffe survived the ordeal though!

The giraffe hated it. And the Lion enjoyed a great last meal!

A little off topic but the Hornady 470 shoots great in my Heym 470. Chronos at about 2150 FPS 12 feet from the muzzle. I believe they use the 106 gr of IMR 4831 as well.
I guess you just have to appreciate their projectiles or NOT?
Sounds like the load Butch recommends for his regulation.
BTW: The Hornady 470NE offering will whack you pretty good as well. Probably my hardest recoiling gun; above my Lott.


EZ

Very interesting.

I am not a re-loader and have no idea of technical details or solutions. I can tell you that I purchased about $3,000 of 500 NE ammo from Superior. When I shot my 500 NE the first time, I got the shock of my life. I have never been hammered that hard or any where close to that hard. I have shot thousands of rounds of big bore rounds (416 Remington, 470 NE, 458 Win Mag, 450 Ackley) Those didn't phase me. However, this 500, I just could not take. I sold it.

I am betting on the ammo.

106 grains of IMR 4831 gives very similar velocities with all bullets tested. 2150 fps is the average almost every time. More data soon to follow in the Double rifle bullet of the future thread.

Sam

I had a bad experience with Superior,my little Chapuis would not shoot right the second day of my plainsgame hunt a couple of years ago,JJ at Champlins put it right,it had to be re-regulated,I personally do not like to post reports of this nature,especially against an American firm,god knows that this economy is bad enough as it is for us to knock one of our own,but it is dissapointing to see that they still have problems with DR ammo,keeping in mind what these firearms are used for,I would never think of using their ammo ever again.

Superior loads for my 300 WM shoot better than anything I have been able to load for it. I have tried - theirs is more accurate so I use theirs on safari for plains game and mine for practice. Theirs have always been reliable in my experience.

I would never think of letting Superior or anyone else load for my 450/400 double rifle, 404 or 458 Lott. On a dangerous game safari I want to know as much as possible what to expect when the trigger is pulled.

I want to be confident that it will go off and what accuracy to expect. That confidence only comes from careful handloading by the hunter himself (or herself) and lots of testing prior to the hunt.

Lets not bad mouth or suggest anyone is at fault till all the facts are in.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The remaining ammo, as stated by Butch and others, should have been brought back for examination. If it was all left in Africa then there is little that can be done to factually evaluate what occurred. Too bad, but it sounds like we will never know. Everything said is now only anecdotal.

plus 2

I don't understand "why" you would leave this ammo.

quote:

I don't understand "why" you would leave this ammo.

To let some poor chap with a 90 year old double of questionable parentage try some out, of course!

quote:

Originally posted by Butch Searcy:
I was called last Saturday and informed of this. Before you guys go off on a monometal tangent,I doubt very seriously that this is the case here. In 30 years of monometal use in my rifes there hasn't been one case of OSR or any ill effects from using them. My loads for use by Superior is this: 106 grs IMR4831 with a 500gr. soft bullet. I have informed smarterthanu thru a good friend to send the rifle to me with the ammo. But I was informed that he left the ammo in Africa. I don't know at this time what the load or bullets were.

Butch,

My .470 shoots barrel to barrel into an inch with that load at 50 yards using 500 gr Woodlieghs.

Has anyone bought some IMR4831 powder that was allot hotter than usual in the last couple of years. I'm thinking that this could be the case with this situation. I experienced this earlier this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Butch Searcy:
Has anyone bought some IMR4831 powder that was allot hotter than usual in the last couple of years. I'm thinking that this could be the case with this situation. I experienced this earlier this year.

The load you told me to shoot in my Searcy 450 NE was to fast (crossing at 50 yards) so the powder charge needed to be reduced.
Have not been able to reshoot the rifle yet with a reduced load due to a shoulder injury. My 8 pound jug of IMR 4831 was special ordered so am guessing it is of recent manufactor. Be interesting to get the correct load worked up and then chrono it to see where it is at. But this hints my powder is a tad hotter.

Butch provided loading data for my old field grade which was regulated to a 2250 fps 500 gr Woodleigh load. It was 108 gr of IMR 4831 fired by Federal primers.

Is a stiff but not violent load.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by Butch Searcy:
Has anyone bought some IMR4831 powder that was allot hotter than usual in the last couple of years. I'm thinking that this could be the case with this situation. I experienced this earlier this year.

The load you told me to shoot in my Searcy 450 NE was to fast (crossing at 50 yards) so the powder charge needed to be reduced.
Have not been able to reshoot the rifle yet with a reduced load due to a shoulder injury. My 8 pound jug of IMR 4831 was special ordered so am guessing it is of recent manufactor. Be interesting to get the correct load worked up and then chrono it to see where it is at. But this hints my powder is a tad hotter.

This certainly sounds like that could be the probelm here! I'd change to H-4831, or H-4831sc both the same burn rate as each other, but the H-4831sc works through a powder measure better. Both Hornady 4831 and 4831sc are a tiny bit slower burn rate that the IMR 4831! Either one will fill the case enough that no filler is needed!

Mac

Re your comment
"I'd change to H-4831, or H-4831sc both the same burn rate as each other, "

If these are the powders derived from ADI2213 and 2213sc, then we found they had different burn rates. In fact, one of my DR's didn't like 2213sc at all yet worked fine with 2213.

.