I'm sure most of you are aware of my A Hollis 500/450 purchase of earlier this year. It's a BLNE. I've decided I want ejectors. So I'm having Walter Earl of the Antique Gallery here in Anchorage sell it, so I can buy a pre war English BLE .450-475 calibre. One of the nicest characteristic of this rifle was its pristeen bores. So.........I found a Westley Richards (save the H&H, Purdey because I love WR!!!) BLE at a very reasonable price. It's a best quality, with good outside condition, accurate, and a good LOP for me. However.....I called and asked about the bores and the salesman was straight forward saying although the rifling is good there is frosting and pitting present just forward of the chambers. He would rate the bores/barrels a 6 of possible 10..... So what do you think? If I buy it and like it I will shoot it...A LOT. So what are your thoughts? Find one with better bores? Go with it and then have it rebarreled when the bores go out????? If it's just a bad idea I'd be willing to wait a bit longer saving to get the right one. Just thinking.

Brett

Light to Medium frosting in the first half of the barrel is not a majot problem
as long as it doesn't include PITS (which would indicate to me corrosion of a bigger kind).

I have found as long as the bore at the other end is in good nick the gun will shoot
- all other things being equal !!!

BTW - What calibre ?

When you say "WR Best quality", WR had a whole heap of different levels of quality.
Can you explain further ?

And finally, I very much doubt you will shoot a gun out.

Just my HO.

500NE,

He said there was some pitting. It's a .475 #2. I guess I should expound on "best". It's a BLE from 1912 with scroll engraving, leather covered recoil pad, breautiful wood, eyes on the wood of the rear action of the butt stock, case coloring, one standing two folding, a beautiful doll's head, a cheek piece, and the fore end has a latch (not sure of the wording) as apposed to an Anson or swing style like the Army & Navys. Engraving is fair scroll engraving, but not extravigant game scene or 100% scroll.

Brett

PS. Boxlock not droplock.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
500NE,

He said there was some pitting. It's a .475 #2. I guess I should expound on "best". It's a BLE from 1912 with scroll engraving, leather covered recoil pad, breautiful wood, eyes on the wood of the rear action of the butt stock, case coloring, one standing two folding, a beautiful doll's head, a cheek piece, and the fore end has a latch (not sure of the wording) as apposed to an Anson or swing style like the Army & Navys. Engraving is fair scroll engraving, but not extravigant game scene or 100% scroll.

Brett

PS. Boxlock not droplock.

A boxlock is considered in the same league as a Sidelock by most people.


On your gun, I think terminology may be causing a few queries. A this stage it doesn't sound like a best gun. Just my HO though.

1. What shape is the Dolls head - this could determine who made it.

2. Is it a a C Bolt type (ie WR) or just a
a normal top lever ?

3. Higher end WR Boxlocks did not have straight edges to the edge (back) of the Boxlock action. They were carved.

4. "eyes on the wood of the rear action of the butt stock," What do you mean by "eyes" ?

Photos are the best way - any chance of throwing one up on here ?


5 - Re pitting, I'd have a look at it. Big Bores are more forgiving than small bores.

6. Is it an ejector ?

475 No 2, although not widely around is a ripper cartridge. Big Dick syndrome !!!!

If the price is right, go for it.

Good luck.

.

.475 No. 2 is so cool...

1,2,3 Check her out.
4. Tear drops or what ever they are called.
5. That's what I'm wondering. Supposedly it shoots well.
6. Yes it's an ejector. Got that covered. Just need the gun to back it up!!!!! Seriously though nothing wrong with a .470, but it's a little boring for my taste. Everyone has a .470. Not everyone has a .475 no2!!!














Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
A this stage it doesn't sound like a best gun. Just my HO though.

It may just be the "best quality" Westley Richards" I've ever considered buying!!!

Let me know what you think all.

Brett

Dangerous Milk Jugs or Elephant, or anything in between; under three inches for four shots at 50 yards would be my criteria for purchase. That is a really beautiful rifle.

Rich

Oh quit lolly gagging and get it!


Then lets go shoot it before it snows!

EDIT - Sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs with this, I don't know how much you know and how much you don't !!!


1. When you next inspect the gun or get it in your hands, "ring" the barrels / each barrel to make sure you get a true "note" sound. Do this by hanging the hook on your finger and then gently tap each barrel with a brass rod or something - use metal but something soft - the back of a spoon is good.

If it gives you a dull thud note, then the ribs or some part of the gun barrels are loose. if a true ringing note, then that is good.


2. Do you think the gun has been re colour case hardened ?

Edit - in looking at the gun, it looks like it has been Re CCH - absolutely no wear marks on the CCH where you would expect to see a gun that has been used / carried.

"Seriously though nothing wrong with a .470, but it's a little boring for my taste. Everyone has a .470. Not everyone has a .475 no2!!!"

Same reason I went for the 500 Nitro.

Nothing wrong with the 475 No 2.


Anyway, overall, nice gun. As the poster above said, if it shoots and the price is right, go for it.

Good luck.

.

Brett,

The more you get into vintage doubles the more you'll realize the ejector / non-ejector debate is a non event. I fell victim to it early on and passed on an unfired William Evans 450/400 because it was an extractor. I regret that move to this day. However, I remember thinking it was so important so I sympathize with how you feel.

As to the Westley, I do care about bore condition and while frosting or a bit of cordite burn can be lived with, pits are an entirely different matter to me. Don't rush, there will be plenty of rifles in better condition in that price range.

If I wanted a 475 no2 and this was originally chambered in the cartridge I'd call Holland up and speak with them about this one.

http://www.hollandandholland.c...ns/9964646413361.htm

I am normally not bothered by frosted bores as most of the doubles I've owned had cordite bores and it never bothered the way they shot..

However, I would never buy a used double without a shooting period or a try out, At worst/best case scenario is I would want a 5 day inspection with a shooting clause to try it out....

I don't like ejectors as it makes a double hard to open, with extractors the barrels just fall open with the weight of the barrels and its quite and very fast to load..

Good to see you back Ray! I will definitely have an inspection period before I perminently pull the trigger so to speak.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
pits are an entirely different matter to me. Don't rush, there will be plenty of rifles in better condition in that price range.

http://www.hollandandholland.c...ns/9964646413361.htm

I'm kind of thinking I need to sit on my hands and see what comes up. Great rifle though. That W & S is a really nice gun. Probably a bit above what I want to pay at the momment. I'll be waiting for my .500/450 to sell before I can pull the trigger on anything else.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
2. Do you think the gun has been re colour case hardened ?

Absolutely. It's been refinished, but not changed.

Brett

brett

nice rifle, and the colour was done by someone that knew what they were doing, 500n's advice is very sound check the barrel set for small suprices.
other than that, if the price fits and the gun fits, go ahead and have fun.

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
check the barrel set for small suprices.

Suprises??? Otherwise that's a new one to me.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
check the barrel set for small suprices.

Suprises??? Otherwise that's a new one to me.

Brett

brett

quote:

500N:
1. When you next inspect the gun or get it in your hands, "ring" the barrels / each barrel to make sure you get a true "note" sound. Do this by hanging the hook on your finger and then gently tap each barrel with a brass rod or something - use metal but something soft - the back of a spoon is good.

If it gives you a dull thud note, then the ribs or some part of the gun barrels are loose. if a true ringing note, then that is good.

i see a bit of surface rust between the underlugs, it might be nothing or it might be the picture, just check please.

other than that it looks like a fine gun from a great maker

best

peter

Peterdk

I thought that, but then I think it might be grease / oil but worth checking all the same.



Brett
Check if they are chopper lump barrels. I can't see any line on the barrels
even by blowing the photo up.

It's not a problem if they are not, but better if they are IMHO from the year
of the gun (Better / Higher quality guns were made with chopper lump barrels).


Anyone else have an opinion on Chopper Lump or otherwise ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Check if they are chopper lump barrels. I can't see any line on the barrels
even by blowing the photo up.

It's not a problem if they are not, but better if they are IMHO from the year
of the gun (Better / Higher quality guns were made with chopper lump barrels).


Anyone else have an opinion on Chopper Lump or otherwise ?

.

these are by all proberbility shoelumps if you look at picture no. 2 you can see the side of the shoe coming up.

strenght vice there really is no big difference in the different constructions, it is just tradition that the very best guns have chopper lump barrels, but then i have seen poorly struck up chopper lumps as well.

it really to me is a matter of the end result everything fits and the lines flow as they should.

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

strenght vice there really is no big difference in the different constructions, it is just tradition that the very best guns have chopper lump barrels, but then i have seen poorly struck up chopper lumps as well.

it really to me is a matter of the end result everything fits and the lines flow as they should.

best

peter

I agree, I don't see any diff in the strength.

It's more working out what level of quality gun it is.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
It's more working out what level of quality gun it is.

.

i would say going from the engraving, and also the fact that this is a normal boxlock, it is proberly a normal B-class, anson and deely actioned double rifle.
the lacking of the checkered sidepanel is also an indication of it being a B-class.

just my humble oppinion

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
i would say going from the engraving, and also the fact that this is a normal boxlock, it is proberly a normal B-class, anson and deely actioned double rifle.
the lacking of the checkered sidepanel is also an indication of it being a B-class.

just my humble oppinion

peter

Agree re the sidepanel.

It also doesn't have a scalloped action or a C Bolt.

Just my HO though.



Is that a H. L. on the barrels ?

A Leonard gun ?


I can't remember off the top of my head what he stamped on gun barrels
or where he stamped it.

Anyone remember ?

.

Good questions all. I'll check on the shoe lump thing, rust, and barrel sound. I should know the Leonard stamp since my Hollis was made by him, but I'm spacing at the momment. Champlin has a beautiful Francotte in .470 with Shoe lump barrels. I was keeping it in the back of my mind. I know chomper lump is traditional and more desirable, but why? How do you visually tell the difference?

Brett

Brett, look at the back side of the lump. Chopper barrels will have a fine line where the halves were joined.

They're really not "better", in that we don't hear of rampant shoe/dovetail lump barrel failures, but are certainly more difficult/expensive to make and hence a mark of a higher quality gun. I've only got 1 chopper lump gun and will bring it to the range next time.

To me it is sort of like the cut rifling vs button or milled 1911s and mausers actions vs other methods. They all work fine or would have been discarded, but some are just "better" from a purist point of view.

My personal preferences are DRs over bolts, two triggers over 1, cut rifling over button, chopper over shoe, sidelock over droplock, droplock over boxlock, etc, but reality and my wallet rear their ugly heads!! Fortunately they all work just fine.

Cheers,

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
I've only got 1 chopper lump gun and will bring it to the range next time.
Bob

When can we get together for the fall West Coast DRSS Shoot Out? Is Call still up here?

Brett here's a link showing chopper lumps.
http://www.hallowellco.com/lumps.htm

Edit: I just went out to look at my 500/450 Hollis, it's a chopper lump and since your's is so close it should be also.