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Being a dreamer, I was perusing J. Purdey's website for their offerings and saw they offer a DR. I have not heard much about their DR's on this site as opposed to the other bespoke makers like WR, H&H, Rigby and such. Just out of curiosity, any reason in particular? As a side note, I see they claim their bolt action rifles are 100% Britain made and not a Mauser action where they do the stock work. Mayfair action or in-house? 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | ||
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Whistle over to Steve Barnett's web site and scroll down to Purdey DR they have 8 ranging from 300H&H to 577. I have owned a Purdey Shotgun for the last 25 years should have bought a DR back then when they were more than affordable. https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/double-rifles | |||
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Price. A vintage Purdey double rifle will sell at a considerable premium to even a Holland and Holland Royal. A new Purdey double rifle will be several hundred thousand dollars, in some cases well in excess of $300K. Mike | |||
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It's just money, Mike! | |||
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Since 1922 and the invention of their "spring tube" the Holland has been the better gun...even a game gun although personally, in that, I still think a Boss has the edge. In a DR a Holland is indisputably far better than any modern day Purdey. It is, simply, less complicated and thus less money is wasted on an over involved Beesley system. Strip a Purdey and strip a Holland "spring tube" self opener and you'll reach the same conclusion. | |||
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You are not alone in your opinion. | |||
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Thank you for the replies! I know very little about doubles as they are above my pay grade. But I enjoy looking at and reading about them, hence my question. Zephyr, an acquaintance of my father also owns a Purdey shotgun. A trim sxs 20 ga, it is stunning to to say the least. Some years ago, he let me carry it for a short time while we were all bird hunting. It might be the apogee of my time afield. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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One experienced collector of DRs here in the past said that H&H double rifles tended to go off face after about 50 shots. Any insight into that? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Just nonsense talk. My (former) Holland 500 3 1/4 was made in aroudn 1890 and was tight as a vault after 120+ years. All of the English makers produce the best of the best. When in London many years ago the folks at Holland were very nice and I enjoyed their showroom. They now have my books on display there. Purdey, on the other hand, were stuck up ass holes. They would not let me in the door! A rude butt told me the store was closed. I mentioned the lights were on and it was mid-day. He stepped in front of the door and said again they were closed and I could not enter. I was there after my Holland stop. Amazing how rude some folks are. I bet they now post on AR's poltiical forum as liberals. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal old chap you need more practice on that stiff upper lip before you will be allowed in  | |||
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Given mine and Cal’s experience with Purdey’s I am surprised one does not have to supply bank statements, credit references, and birth pedigree before even being allowed to go on their website. - Mike EDIT: My experience mirrored Cal’s at Purdy’s store front back in the ‘80s I’m pretty sure their behavior at trade shows would be different. Nice to hear that Purdey may be more friendly these days. Still, my experience in London on two separate occaisions of being immediately welcome at Holland, Rigby, and the old John Roberts & Son when located at 5 King Street, Covent Garden made my mind up. | |||
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My experience with Purdey was different from Cal's. I was at the Beinfield gun show where they had a booth. I was dressed in Levi's and a cotton shirt, not looking like I had money. The two guys in the booth were nice and friendly. They invited me in to the booth and let me handle the two guns they had on display. Spent about 15 minutes with them. Dave | |||
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Cal, I visited Purdey in 1992...they were obnoxious then.. But last november I came again...got invited into the Long Room, looked at some shotguns, their new bolt rifle and last, but not least several new double rifles...even a .600 NE. The .600...well I had to use all my strenght to close it..Beesley action is hopelessly slow to be of any use against DG IMHO..but lovely craftmanship.. | |||
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I visited Purdy in 1998. The site was impressive. They still proudly displayed the shell damage from World War 2 at the entrance. The inside was being renovated and it was work in progress. It was not as big as H&H (whom I had visited just before). The front desk was manned by a guy in a grey pinstriped 3 piece suit with a pointed grey beard and a monocle! He looked like he was in a 200 years time warp. He was friendly and said that he was doing research on some old ledgers. I was shown the large room with the guns. It was also being redecorated. The boss himself met me in overalls and dust cap! He opened the cabinets and showed me some nice double rifles. In 1998 the used DRs were around GBP15k. Most were in smaller calibers like 300 or 7mm. I was so impressed that I ended up buying a pair of 12 bore Purdeys! Beautifully made and amazing to handle. I brought them home to NZ and showed them off to my friends. I was the envy of our hunting club. Everyone agreed that I had the coolest snap caps they had ever seen! A truly beautiful pair of Purdeys! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Shucks Nakihunter, I had my wife take a picture of me standing outside there in 1975. Reading the start of your post, I started to kick myself for not going in. But by the end I realised you can't get out without buying something ... or two  | |||
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Perhaps I down talked Purdey a bit much in my last post here...I DO like their shotguns, I own and shoot a 1896 12-65 Purdey Game Gun, 28" barrels. That gun is still tight like a bank vault..and nitro proofed in 1913 you see..beautifully made and engraved.. Their new bolt rifle is also very nice, new Mauser actions made by Mayfair Engineering. But the price is out of all proportions.. | |||
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I visited Purdey's iin 2007 and found them to be outgoing and cordial. I didn't buy anything, nor did I feel pressure to do so. They spent a lot of time with me looking up several of my guns - my Woodward .450/400 3-1/4" BPE and my Purdey 12b shotgun. I also had visited with them at the old Vintagers events in Milbrook, NY and found them to be just fine. Maybe they had a change of personnel from the time Cal was there. Purdey rifles are fabulous. I have three: two chambered for the .500 3" BPE, both of which are island back action hammer locks with their snap Jones underlever and third bite; and a .303 hammerless Beesley actioned Jones underlever with third bite. When I was at Purdey's in 2007 I had the pleasure to handle a new .470 hammerless Beesley action double rifle. It would be a wonderful rifle to own and use, but over my pay grade! Anybody who downgrades a Purdey rifle should actually try one. Curl | |||
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Check with Dustin Mounts at Gordy & Son in Houston Texas. Dustin is Prudey's gunsmith in the USA! Last time I was there they had several Double Rifles! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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In the old days the difference in steel and workmanship between a H&H or Purdey v/s other English guns was significant. That gap has narrowed significantly these days. But if you have millions where do you spend your money! Fortunately life can be enjoyed at different levels! | |||
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Agreed. Today Wesley Richards builds guns and rifles equal to or better than Boss, Purdey and Holland & Holland. The best guns and rifles made in the world today are now built by Hartmann & Weiss, in my opinion--as well the opinion of many others I must add. London's Peter Nelson made the best guns and rifles in the world up unto his retirement in 2012-13; however none of us ever saw any of them as the collectors bought them all, with one collector (lives in Florida) buying the majority. | |||
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+1 Being so lucky to have easy access to H&H, Purdey, Rigby and W-R, I have to whole-heartedly agree with Hartmann & Weiss being the top dog. But get them asap; they're not getting any younger (Mr Hartmann was too unwell to travel to SCI this year). http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/homepage.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Regarding the Mauser bolt action, Purdey made them for the first time in 1929-1930. Initially they were stocking German Mauser actions, and it continued like this for a few decades. They then started using actions by GM, and now they use actions built by Mayfair Engineering in London therefore the "British made" thing. Recently they discontinued the traditional bolt action rifle (although the site still has it), and replaced it with a cheaper made bolt action rifle that still uses a Mayfair Engineering controlled feed action, but it's mounted on a metal chassis embedded in the stock and has a floating barrel. This is a cheap way to make a rifle that shoots well. It sells for much less than the original bolt action rifle and comes with lesser quality wood and wood finish in smaller calibers, and a cheap ABS case. There is a general agreement that it's not a good step. Double rifles- they build a great double that is way nicer than a H&H royal in both design and quality of fit and finish. Hollands don't get off face after 50 shots as someone said, but there is some truth to it; compared to a Purdey the Holland Royals do get off face sooner, partially because of the size of the hinge pin. The Purdey system is quite complex and the self opener is integral to the mechanism which makes it quite hard to produce, therefore they cost more and less than a handful makers dare to tackle the design. H&H system is more widely copied because of its simplicity. The Purdey system has an advantage in that the kickers are always pushing hard against the barrels, making the engagement of the under-bites to the locking bolt quite secure and preventing play and movement. Even when they begin to go off face this pressure keeps them feeling tight and reduces the wear from movement and forces affecting the action upon firing. Why you don't hear much about them is because of the price, and because they aren't particularly as associated with double rifles as Holland and WR are. When it comes to overall quality, no one touches Hartmann and Weiss. They are in a whole different class. Second place is Purdey and current production Westley Richards, then in the third place Holland Royals along with the new Rigby rising bite. The Rigbys made in the USA roughly between 1997-2009 are pieces of crap. I can't comment on Boss because they made a very small number of double rifles. I only got to examine one modern SxS, and maybe two or three O/U ones. They felt quite well built, but the sample is not big enough for me to judge the general quality. The company changed hands a few times in its recent history, and currently they don't have a real factory and just finish and assemble parts made elsewhere in their Kew workshop. Same goes for Rigby. On the other hand WR, Purdey, Holland, and Hartmann and Weiss have actual factories. Hartmann and Weiss beat Boss in their own game because they build a stunning O/U rifle on the Boss design, but they improve it with a hidden firing pin retainer, eliminating the need for the exposed screw in the breech face of a Boss, and they use hardened parts to catch the ejectors and around the trunnions for even longer service life and more durability than the original Boss design. | |||
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Double Rifle; Thank your for informative insight. In regard to the Holland hinge pin issue. What is your opinion on Holland's replaceable insert into the draw of the action where it will contact the "circle" (now a "straight" with Holland's design) and absorb a large percentage of the forces at cartridge ignition, thereby reducing the total force against the hinge pin? How is Boss proceeding under the fairly new ownership by the American who also is the CEO of the Market Basket grocery firm in America? Seems like they have kept this quite. I must agree that the Purdey strategy on the bolt action rifle is likely to prove a mistake just as their foray into cheaper Birmingham made 2nd and 3rd quality shotguns was--a big, big mistake nearly 10 decades ago. History is of no advantage by people who do not know what they do not know. | |||
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Wow. Thanks for that information. I wonder how Watson brothers and Daniel Fraser would compare for quality. Just curious. I am just a guy that appreciates these fine guns and have no real knowledge or technical expertise. I have been very impressed by old Alex Henry and Danl Fraser guns. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Well, that's an improvement, anyway. One contributor here and on the old opposition reckoned the figure was 30 shots in the bigger calibres, possibly because they did without any significant top fastener. I would think H&H's use of a back-action lock would add some resistance to bending in the bar, though. | |||
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Agree entirely  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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I remember this guy from a few years ago. He fell out with Saeed and left AR. he was some famous guy who was a collector and a DR hunter with top end DRs. He claimed that any H&H DR above 400 cal would go off face within 50 shots. He claimed that he spoke with the H&H chairman about it and promised to buy a H&H DR big bore when they could guarantee that it would not go off face within 50 shots.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Transvaal I have not seen a properly used one that has this system. Nevertheless, it sounds -at least in theory- like something that would have a positive effect on longevity. Under Mr. Demoulas Boss seems to be heading in the right direction, focusing on brand exclusivity and making guns in "best" configuration only. Most people do not know that during the Halsey family's ownership of Boss, a short lived effort to revive "Robertson" guns was made. These are pictures of an O/U and a SxS Robertson guns made around 2004, both are boxlocks with side plates   I saw them at Boss' London shop when they were in Mount street, and was not happy. Plain wood, not the best fit and finish, and Monobloc barrels easily identified by the vertical line ahead on the chambers. The guns felt "Italian cheap" if you know what I mean, and I heard gossip in the back alleys of the trade that certain parts and/or operations originated in Germany. The owners at the time also had a controlling share in H&K so there might be some truth to this. I do not see it being a viable venture on the long run though, unless the owner is happy to be a custodian who injects money into it without making a profit. The world is different now, these guns cost much more relative to standard incomes than they did in the golden ages, hunting is not as acceptable socially as it used to be, and you can't be profitable by selling a dozen or so guns to wealthy overseas clients each year. Holland and Purdey sell more guns because they offer secondary lower quality lines, they also sell a ton of clothing, gifts, weird accessories, and they have spring/winter/fall collections like fashion houses, yet they both operate at an annual loss of millions. Both are owned by luxury conglomerates who absorb the loss and keep them alive though, which is not the case with Boss. Time shall tell. Nakihunter Not talking specifically about any names not to offend or invite trolls and associates. Generally speaking, we need to separate gun companies into two groups- The first is real gunmakers who have a proper organization and actual in-house work force. And the second is a bunch of names, mostly defunct historical ones, who are largely nothing but people who bought the legal rights to the name and having the guns made in the trade. That second group have no particular "quality", because they contract machine shops to cut actions, they buy barrels and locks from specialized suppliers, then send it all with the walnut blanks to self-employed workers who work in their homes or garages. The guns move from one worker to another, each doing his thing, then eventually arrive at the shop front of the "brand" who gives it to the customer. I was once visiting one of those workers who is a dear friend, and at the time he was actioning guns for three different brands. This is why you can't realistically associate a certain level of quality with any of these brands since they are built by everyone and two guns with consecutive serial numbers could be built by completely different sets of people. Actual gunmaking firms do use outworkers too at times, still this fundamentally differs from these virtual brands who completely depend on the trade to build their guns. | |||
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Gerhard and Otto are some of the classiest and most knowledgeable people in the business, and their products are a unique mixture of English heritage and superb German engineering. They keep finding ways to add even more class to their guns in ways that boggle the mind. Look for example at how they formed the front sight ramp integrally in the rib of this 600 NE double rifle  Now that's something. | |||
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Double Rifle; I wish Boss well. However, they will likely be about the same as they are for a long time in my opinion. I visited them at Kew Bridge several years ago when I was living in UK for a short time. I have the earliest known shotgun built by John Robertson (10Aug1887 Stephen Grant #2 of pair--stamped JR back of action))using what was soon to be his trademark Boss action and style, and I stopped into their shop to show them the photos. The locks of this Robertson built Grant were so early in Robertson's prototype design that there is no forward tumbler stop built into the lock plate. Regards; | |||
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Double Rifle: I notice you have 18 posts or AR. Welcome to the group. I appreciate your knowledge. You will be a welcome addition to this forum and, I'm positive, can teach all of us some valuable information. Cheers, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Thank you. My big brothers are long time members here and they always told me how great it is, and I see they were right. Knowledgeable people and a generous administrator. | |||
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Welcome Double Rifle, we both seem to have great respect for Gerhard and Otto! Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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This is a great thread, in that we are actually hearing about some of the real differences in various actions. In my advanced age and weakened muscle tone, I would avoid a really big Beesley action Purdey, because the self opener would possibly be confused with a tight case in the heat of battle. I can barely close a 12 gauge Beesley action gun, and would really be fighting the weight of a .600 in addition to the springs. It was a lifelong search, but I finally found a Purdey without the complication of a self opener. It is a high condition, heavy proof, Whitworth steel, full optioned pigeon gun, with hammers outside of the action. I don't mind picking the empties out of the breeches since I do the same on other guns I shoot regularly. OK, back to this wonderful discussion. | |||
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Naki I saw those Robertson guns in the workshop in Birmingham where they were stocked! And, at the same time, the wooden single trigger mock ups from the long time ago famous court case. IMHO the original Robertson guns (which were good quality "best" boxlock side-by-side guns) were excellent. Well worthy of Boss. The modern 21st Century Robertson o/u guns were a betrayal of the Robertson idea of "best" side-by-side boxlock to compliment the company's Boss side-by-side sidelock product. Lastly little heard of outside the UK the firm A A Brown is worth checking out for bird guns...see their "Brown Beretta" for an o/u. | |||
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Thank you very much for the informative reply! And thank you to all the others replying as well. I really enjoy all the info! 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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