The other thread got me to thinking why don't we don't see more 375 H&H doubles?
Been considering a VC for my next double and at first I was pretty sure it would be a 450/400. But after noticing they offer the PH grade in 375 H&H with ejectors standard it has my interest. That and noticing I have about 1,500 .375 bullets in my stash.
Mechanically speaking, anyone experience problems with belted non rimmed cases and ejectors?

Most people don't like a rimless cartridge in a double. It has been hashed over numerous times before. It basically comes down if the ejectors are made properly many report there is no reason to worry. For me why chance it when there is so many other good options avalable.

Mac

Just about every DR maker out there offers their rifles in the 375 belted H&H. If there were any "bugs" to be worked out with a rimless 375 in a DR, I'm sure they've been taken care of by now.

We've been around on this so many times on AR. Like Biebs says everyone makes them,

Yes the heavy duty extractor on a rifle chambered with a rimmed cartridge will less likely fail "when their is a problem" but modern guns have proven themselves over the years to be fairly trouble free.

Why do we look at double rifles and raise our hackels over a rimmless or belted rimmless chambering yet we don't think anything of a drilling or bbf chambered for these rounds when the system is exactly the same.

we will never get beyond the fact that a rimmless round will conseptully have a weaker extractor, Having said that lets look at the pro's, I belive there is something to be said about-

Cheaper and easy to get ammo.

Availibility of components,Brass,dies, etc.

Ammunition availble almost anywhere if you have a problem on a hunt.

No filers or dacron when handloading


Randy one thing I remember about the day that you, mike, brett, Bob and Cal shot my .338 Ferlach double rifle was it seemed to take you guys by surprise when the ejectors shot the cases out as hard as that rifle dose.

I will state that the extractors on a rimmless case are stronger. I will ask is it needed?

Akshooter,
I like how you think! You brought up a lot of good points. Cant say I ever had any problems pulling out cases of my Baikal 06 doubles either. And I really liked your rifle.

And as far as 375 H&H ammo, there are so many factory rounds loaded by all manufacturers, there's probably a load that would regulate in a 375 H&H DR without needing to handload for it.

And as far as power, the 375 Flanged is not even close to the 375 H&H.

Because the experts on this forum said that you will die a gruesome death if you have one!
Peter.

375 H&H belted or flanged vs. 450/400 either length brass:

1- 375 offers one pound lighter rifle, [say 9 pounds or a bit less]
compared to a 10 pound [or heavier] 450/400.
2- 300 or 400 FPS faster bullets from the 375, so flatter trajectory.
3- In the belted caliber world wide ammo availability.
4- I think I've seen clearly lower prices on D/R's of the 375 bltd mag.
5- JPK will tell you his 458 belted Win Mag D/R is his darling elephant
killer and it's been that way for 10 or more safaris so far and NO hint
of ejection difficulty. So the rimless characteristic means ZIP.

Some other very respected people have said for DG go rimmed/flanged
and that is that, period, the end!!!!!!!!!

So get a 9 pound or less 375 bltd mag D/R from HEYM and rechamber
it to use necked down 450/400 3" brass from HORNADY.

Jack,

FYI, my Abiattico & Salvinelli 375H&H sidelock double rifle weighs 8 1/2lbs. It may weigh a bit less when I have finished tinkering with it, since I will hollow out the butt just a bit to get a more weight forwards balance.

Guys poo-poo concern for rifle weight, but let me tell you that if you are doing the walking that I have regularly done in Africa or occasionally here at home, the 2lbs you "save" with a 375 is a hell of a lot of weight. And I don't care how fit the hunter, 2lbs makes for a lot of difference through a long hot day on tracks.

One disadvantage to the 375H&H vs the 458wm as a double rifle round, the 458wm that does have extraction and ejection issues is readily converted to 450NE 3 1/4", while the 375H&H's case, with its forward shoulder, does not permit a 375H&H chamber to be reamed to 375 Flanged Magnum, or, so far as I know, any factory cartridge.

Also FYI, there is a newly introduced .375" rimmed round that supposedly provides 375 Ruger performance. I saw a thread on it in the Big Bores forum. If it ever catches on it might be the perfect medium bore double rifle cartridge. But loaded with and rifles regulated for 350gr Woodleighs.

Not to stir the pot too much, pr to cast aspersions on any members here, but from what I have read, the African and dangerous game hunting experience of the strident "NO RIMLESS!" crowd is thin. In addition, I have some doubts about the veracity of some of the reports of rimless cartridge rifles that allegedly gave trouble.

That said, I believe, as I have from the outset, that one needs to be cautious purchasing a rimless double rifle, and the "perfect rimless cartridge rifle candidate" is a relatively expensive and well made double rifle. A high end rifle because 1. less chance of imperfect ejection mechanism to begin with, since fitting and finish is, imo, critical for the rinless ejection system, and 2. if the rifle ends up rechambered for a nitro round, the cost of the work is a smaller fraction of the purchase price of the rifle. The purchaser needs to be ready to pay for the cost of conversion, or to sell the rifle that gives trouble.

BTW, I will hunt elephants with my 375H&H double.

JPK

My 375 H&H rimless belted magnum has no ejectors so it has no ejector problems. It works just fine without them. I have never had a problem inserting or removing shells which is amazing considering that it's just that little tab that sticks up from the extractor that holds the shell. But if there was a rimmed cartridge that duplicated the 375 H&H I would get one. The 450/400 doesn't. The 375 H&H is my buffalo gun. I don't want one stronger or weaker. I will never ask my 375 H&H to shoot an elephant. I hope there is something to the new 375 rimmed that someone mentioned with preformance comperable to the 375 Ruger.

R.G.Howard,

"Ejector problems" as used in this thread includes extractor problems too. The concern of the "NO RIMLESS!" crowd, and me too, is that there are reports of the "little tab" or pawl slipping over the base of the rimless cartridge.

Maybe I can imagine that happening with a rumless AND beltless round, though either the ammo or the chamber would have to be out of minimum/maximum specs for it to occur, however, any round with a belt will safely head space on the belt (though some shooters, especially bolt actions shooters looking for maximum accuracy will want their belted rounds head spacing on the shoulder.) If the rifle is made to specs, even with a chamber that meets maximum dimensions, and the pawl is decently fitted, there is no way for the pawl to slip over the base, there just isn't room in the chamber for the belted cartridge to go that deeply into the chamber before it head spaces on the belt.

JPK

To JPK,

5- JPK will tell you his 458 belted Win Mag D/R is his darling elephant
killer and it's been that way for 10 or more safaris so far and NO hint
of ejection difficulty. So the rimless characteristic means ZIP.

Some other, very respected people have said for DG go rimmed/flanged
and that is that, period, the end!!!!!!!!!


I hope what I typed above that includes mentioning your name was not

taken by you as negative, I meant it as POSITIVE. I apologise if it did

not come across as intended. I'd like to see your rifles one day as the

way you have described them they sound like fine pieces of a gunmakers craft.

I have seen pix of them...they're delicious!

I would be interesred in knowing from those that have doubles in 375 H&H belted how long have they owned them, how oftenor how many rounds have been fired in these rifles & if any problems have been encountered. It seems that so many are made and are purchased I wonder how many have really come off face.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
I would be interesred in knowing from those that have doubles in 375 H&H belted how long have they owned them, how oftenor how many rounds have been fired in these rifles & if any problems have been encountered. It seems that so many are made and are purchased I wonder how many have really come off face.

Clayman,

I have owned my 375H&H for coming on three years, but I have not shot it much since I am sending anniversary cards to the gunsmith who has it to add scope bases and rings to it and to twist the triggers and some other work to make it suitable for this lefty. I am having Joe Smithson bases and rings installed and it took Joe almost a year to gather sufficient orders for a run of his bases and rings for double rifles.

However, I have over 800 rounds through my 458wm double rifle, a Marcel Thys sidelock. The 458wm opperates at slightly higher pressures than the 375H&H. The rifle shows no signs of looseness.

I don't think the previous owner shot my rifle much, if at all. So the round count at ~800 is close to total rounds fired through the rifle.

Jack, I have no issue with what you post. If you have read my response on this thread and also on another current thread about a 416 Rigby double, you cannot escape reading my train of thought on rimless rifles and why I believe that they are entirely suitable, but should be approached with thought and due consideration.

Really, to sum up my conclusion, I believe that any double rifles with a belt cannot exhibit extractor or ejection problems related to the belted case - ie. the pawl slipping over the cartridge base - unless the rifle was sloppily made with excessive head space in the chamber at the belt.

I also believe that a rimless but beltless chambered double rifle cannot have the pawl slipping over the base unless the rifle has excess head space, with the shoulder too far forward. OR!, the ammunition loader has erred and sized his ammunition incorrectly, with the shoulder too far rearward, allowing the cartridge to drop too deeply into the chamber, and also creating excess head space. If I owned a double in a rimless, beltless cartridge, I would size my brass for that rifle so that the brass's shoulder was a tight fit in the chamber. Assuming the rifle's chamber is to spec, and assuming the rifle is well made, I think any examples of the pwl slipping over the base are probably ammunition loader error.


JPK

As usual, you always end up with good practical advice here.
Decided my next double with be the VC PH model in 375 H&H. Just need to get the guy who sells VC's to answer my emails or PM's, lol.
Now......should the Blaser or double be first in line?