I have been following the saga of the SPR22 in 45/70 for a while now. It appears that the SPR22 is becoming available after a long wait and several members have given reports. Most reports have given some praise to the feel of the double rifle aspect of the design, but there seem to be multiple problems in accuracy, regulation, and broken parts from the get go.

If...

you were looking into 45-70's for American big game hunting and reloading entertainment... and,

you were a left handed shooter... and,

you don't mind dinking around with things to get them right...up to a point...


Would you get a Marlin 1895 or a Remington SPR22 in 45/70?

jt

I have owned a Marlin standard rifle in 45/70.
One of my nephews in law got it from me.
My brother owns a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70.

I have shot several others including a 450 Marlin.

All of them were of high quality, well made, and VERY accurate.

I am not a lever action freek, but the Marlins are quality rifles IMHO.

I have not handled a Remington SPR22, so I cannot comment on them.

I suggest you get a look at one and make your decision.

I do a lot of hunting with double rifles, and can say I really enjoy hunting with them.

Like Tony says, the Marlin rifles are well made, and will,IMO, outlast the Remington by a long shot! However, if you want a double rifle, then the Remington is the pick of the two, for obvious reasons.

The Marlin is , again IMO, a much stronger rifle, and a more serious rifle, but again it isn't a double rifle! Tony's suggestion to handle them both, and then make your decision. The fact that you are left handed makes no difference because neither of the two rifles are set up for right hand only, but work just as well with one side or the other.

I personally am thinking of buying a Rem, chambered for 45-70, so I can rebarrel it to a pair of 1 in 10" twist 30-30 barrels, giveing it a lot of wall thickness in the chamber area, where chamber oressure is at it's peak, and IMO, the 30-30 is a far more usefull cartridge in a small double rifle, of this type! IMO that would make a damn fine canoe rifle, that one doesn't have to worry about it getting dirty, or scratched.

JT:

I have three Marlins in 45/70 and one in 450 Marlin (all short barrel guide guns), a #1 Ruger in 45/70 and just added the Remi SPR 22 in 45/70. It all depends on what you want to do.

The Marlins are far stronger than the SPR 22 as far as chamber pressures, and the Ruger is the strongest by far. All the Marlins in any configuration and the Ruger too are about ½ (used) to ¾ (new) the cost of the Remi (new). The Marlins and the Ruger are much more accurate, but the Remi does have a fun factor that is hard to put a $$ value on. It would make a good light weight but high priced truck or pack gun that could be just as easily filled by an H&R single shot for $250 or less.

I bought the Remi with the intention of it being a fun gun for close range hog hunting. Truth is, any of the Marlins have filled that requirement too. Have used the Marlin and Ruger this past May on a P/G hunt in Namibia with moderately hot 300gr handloads that were not even close to max chamber pressure in the Marlins that would have been pushing the max or above in the SPR22.

If I had to do it again....the SPR is fun as hell to shoot....but for the actual utility of the dollars spent....I couldn't justify it (even to myself) again. Might change my mind once I blood the Remi this fall with some trapdoor level loads with 405gr ammo on a hog or two....so my jury is still out.

M3taco, you've stolen the words right out of my mouth. I haven't had the .450 Marlin, but we are equal the rest of the way. I bought the SPR22 strictly as a fun gun double rifle at reasonable cost for a double. The fun factor is the sole reason I have it. I've had problems with it, but do not regret buying it. Once everything is worked out, I will be happy. Saying that, I am going to buy another Marlin in .45/70 since my son has just bought one, and I'd sold/traded my others off.

Prof242:

PM Sent

m3taco, Never got your pm.

I got mine solely for the fun factor also, and to practice with a relatively inexpensive "double rifle". I would like to get a nice 450/400 3" double in the future. If I need hotter loads than the 405 grain trapdoor, I'll just shoot my Ruger #1 in 450/400.

My son has several Contenders and Marlin Guide guns in 45-70 and this will probably go to him to augment his battery, eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
m3taco, Never got your pm.

Prof242:

Tried again - think I forgot to put a message header on the first one and it didn't go out.

Thanks for the input everybody.

I do own a Marlin 1895C, I don't own but do stock & sell the SPR22. I can say IMHO it is junk unfit for the double rifle name. Yes they are lower priced than most doubles but they are cheaper built. They remind me of Norinco products.

This thread essentially says the Marlin 1895 series of lever actions in 45-70 Gov't are safe with operating pressures far higher than the Remington/Baikal SPR22 double rifle, and that may well be so. I don't doubt that 30+ years of experience shows that the modern Marlin 45-70 is safe with well-above SAAMI compliant loads.
The SPR22 manual, and formerly on the Remington web site, but no longer, says the 45-70 version is usable safely with SAAMI compliant loads. That is, as we know, in the 28,000psi/28,000 cup MAP. The owner's manual has the same information on the 30-06 Spr, the other chambering in the SPR22. But of course the '06 operating pressure according to SAAMI is 60,000 psi.
Now, lets go back to the Marlin 1895 (modern) and its owner's manual. In spite of the fact much is made of the 45-70 Marlin's ability to function in excess of 40,000 psi, if we read the owner's manual for this rifle/cartridge combination on the Marlin web site, lo and behold, the manual says to use SAAMI COMPLIANT AMMUNITION, and not to used reloads or non-compliant factory ammo. In other words, in spite of much of what has been posted here and elsewhere about the denigration of the SPR22 because it can "only use SAAMI compliant loads", I guess we can assume the Marlin 45-70 1895 has the same operating pressure limitation, if we only read the owner's manual.
With the Marlin 1895, far heavier pressures have been used successfully for years than SAAMI allows, people obviously valuing experience over Owner's Manual warnings. Lets give the SPR22 a little time to see what develops there for safe loads. Already far heavier than SAAMI loads have been posted on sites on the Internet for the SPR22. And it will take some time to sort out, but I find it odd that we would assume a rifle made in 2008, of modern steels, and chambered in the 30-06 in the same model, would be bound to the same SAAMI pressures limits as an 1873 Trapdoor.
I urge you to follow the owner's manual warnings for all firearms, but at times those warnings do stretch credulity.

JT:
For hunting North American big game and reloading entertainment, as you put it, get the Marlin. It is stronger than the SPR22, better built and more flexible as to loads because it doesn't need to "regulate" for accuracy. It also holds more bullets. I have owned both, and loads that were "just getting warmed up" in the Marlin were unpleasant in the extremely light weight SPR22, not to mention out of regulation. There's not a whole lot you can't get done on the continent within 125 yards or so with a good 400-grain jacketed softpoint or hard-cast WFN at 1900 out of a Marlin that will group them in 1.5 inches at 100 yards. The same rifle with give plinking pleasure for the whole family with a Lee 325 cast bullet and 17 grains of Unique. The Marlin's main shortcomings are overall loaded length and bullet shape requirements to feed safely through the action.

Martyboy,

In a double rifle, chamber pressure isn't the only limiting factor. Breach or back thrust is a serious consideration.

Most all double rifles are chambered in cartridges that produce relatively little chamber pressure or back thrust.

Speaking here of chamber pressure, top flight, top quality rifles run relatively low pressures. The 450NE's for instance, get there performance while maintaining relatively low chamber pressures through case size.

I am an owner of two higher pressure double rifles, and I believe that for a rifle to withstand the higher pressures and back thrust and still give long service life, it needs to be of exceptional quality with very tight tolerances. More than two under bolts are important too, imo. Whatever the SPR22 is, and whatever its merit, it isn't high quality and tight torlerances.

Enjoy the 45/70 double rifle for what it is, a fun gun for anything in the lower 48. Feed it kindly with the SAAMI spec ammo and it will give fine performance and long life. Feed it higher pressure ammo and watch it loosen at the joint and fasteners and grow old before its time.

BTW, I am a proud owner of a 45/70 double rifle.

JPK

I have both of them. The Marlin is stronger,better built & finished. But I think the double's going to be more fun. Maybe just because I've never had one & it's one I can afford. I have to say the double was finished better & had better wood than I expected. I can't wait to shoot my first bear with it. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
m3taco, Never got your pm.

prof242: Could you send me the directions on what you did to your SPR22 to work out the triggers and their major problem with terrible function. Also the things done to ease the breech oepning. Thanks in advance. I still can't find a gunsmith to work on the triggers et al. Thanks in advance...rjs

Rojovin: I sure would like to, but am now in Iraq as a contractor and all of my stuff is in temp storage. Since I'm not married (yay!), I don't have anyone to go through boxes and find the information.
Sorry

I own both and the spr22 is what I would call a fun gun or a close range deer gun greatly suited for tree stand but I personally would not call it a great all around hunting gun when compared to the 1895, I would comfortably shoot at big game up to 200 yards but I would not try that with the sxs since I could probably hit the target with the first round I would doubt the second barrel would wherein the 1895 would. Not to mention more powerful reloads that the 1895 could handle easily, although I am not a supporter of stretching the limits of any cartridge after looking at the barrels of the sxs I am happy with low level loads only

prof242: Thanks for the reply. A You be safe over there and stay out of harms way.
Bob Studen

On the strength of the Rem/Baikal double, I think we need to find the answer to two questions?
1: Are the action and barrels of the 45-70 made from the same steel as the 30-06?
2: If they are made from the same steel, are they heat treated the same?


If they are both made from the same steel and heat treated the same, then the 45-70 double should be able to handle the same bolt thrust as the 30-06.

The base of the 30-06 case of .473", which give s us an area of(pi r^2)or(3.1416 x .2365 x .2365)= .1757 square inches(in^2) .Max pressure is around 60,000 psi. so the bolt thrust should be 10,542 pounds.

The base of the 45-70 case of .503", for an area of .1987 in^2. So the 45-70 double should be safe with a chamber pressure of 53,051psi which is higher than the Marlin pressure limit isn't it? (isn't the Marlin pressure limit around 45,000 psi?)

Just out of curiosity what size frame is the Rem double rifle built on? 12 or 20ga?

I never handled a baikal 20 g shotgun but dimensionally it is similar in sise to my Browning 20g sxs

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:
On the strength of the Rem/Baikal double, I think we need to find the answer to two questions?
1: Are the action and barrels of the 45-70 made from the same steel as the 30-06?
2: If they are made from the same steel, are they heat treated the same?


If they are both made from the same steel and heat treated the same, then the 45-70 double should be able to handle the same bolt thrust as the 30-06.

The base of the 30-06 case of .473", which give s us an area of(pi r^2)or(3.1416 x .2365 x .2365)= .1757 square inches(in^2) .Max pressure is around 60,000 psi. so the bolt thrust should be 10,542 pounds.

The base of the 45-70 case of .503", for an area of .1987 in^2. So the 45-70 double should be safe with a chamber pressure of 53,051psi which is higher than the Marlin pressure limit isn't it? (isn't the Marlin pressure limit around 45,000 psi?)

Just out of curiosity what size frame is the Rem double rifle built on? 12 or 20ga?

i think this is the reason why gunmakers from outside the us, fears what their guns will be subjected to when in the us.

read on the barrel, or the water table what the makers of the gun feels that it is safe with, and obey that wish.

please this is not hard, if you want a bigger cannon go out and buy one, stop trying to make the smaller ones be something they are not designed for.

best

peter

i have both the lever shoots better 100+ yards but up in your face cant beat the double

I think it is more of a question of what you want to use it for, and what you like. I have the Remington SXS in both 06 and 45-70, and enjoy them both. With the close hunting I usually do, both are quite enjoyable. If you want a work of art, pay for an H & H. And I also own the Marlin, which is just as much fun as the SxS; it depends what you are after. The Marlin is prettier and better finished and you can use as strong a hammer round as they make. The Rem's are more towards the lower end, but I bet there aren't too many deer or elk that could tell the difference at reasonable range; if not, get a short fat etc... etc.... Different strokes, as they say. Get the one you really want..neither is all that expensive, and both work.
Rick