I bought a Merkel 470 NE and am looking for a good place to start on a load. From searching the site here is what I found.

I am using Jamison brass
I am starting with 500 gr Woodleigh solids and softs
Will probably is Fed 215 or Fed 215GM primer

It seems like I saw 3 powders mentioned the most – H4831sc, IMR 4831 & RL-15.

H4831sc – start at 108 grains up to 111 grains
IMR4831 – start at 105 grains up to 108 grains
RL-15 – 90 grains with a filler (which I have never used)

Does that sound about right or is there something better?

Anyone have good loads for the Swift or Hornady 500 grain soft & solid?

Thanks

My Krieghoff .470 likes the H4831 sc. I use
112/114 grs. Any less and I get Muzzel Flash? With this load I get the same POI as with Federal Factory Ammo. I use the Federal Mag Primers also. I'm waiting to get some of the new Hornady Ammo to try. As with any reload start below Max. and work your way up. I would stay away from loads that require fillers. Just my .02 cents worth.
Larry

i use the 90 gr RL-15 load for everything including barnes and swift aframes, (don't use a filler either)

I have a merkel in 470NE that regulates very well at 100 yards with 87gr of RL15 with or without a foam wad. I am using Woodleigh solids, softs and Swifts with that load. I have shot some with IMR4831 and recoil was noticeably harder. On a recoil calculator the recoil is about 10 foot lbs heavier with IMR4831 compared to RL15.

I certainly like the idea of less recoil. Is the foam pad/filler necessary? What is the downside of not using it?

Where would you get the filler? What is the makeup of it? If it were a polymer, I would think it might leave a residue in the barrel?
i also like the idea of less recoil!
My shootin" iron is a Heym but is factory regulated with Federal as well.

EZ

When I loaded for my 470 I used RL-15 and polyester filler out of an old sleeping bag. Had no problems with it AT ALL. Only disconcerting thing was the puff of filler that blows out of the barrel and floats to the ground. It was obvious to me from this that the filler was not comsumed and did not leave any residue in the barrel.

I use Kynoch #2 wads from Trader Keith's. There is no residue that I can tell. You just push them in on top of the powder with a pencil or pen and seat the bullet. These are foam wads. I do not use a wad with the IMR 4831 loads.

j10...the BEST loads I ever found for my 470 Merkel were Fed 215's and 89 gr of RL15 w/filler behind a NF 500 gr Cup and FP solid, and 90 gr of the same behind a 500 gr Woodie soft. Both loads used the #2 Kynoch foam plug and both loads shot about 2175 fps on the money and have been, to-date, the most accurate load in ANY double I have shot....and that's about 15 different ones. AND those NF Cups knocked down a cape buff in full stride AT ME.

You may need to go up or down a grain or so but I think you couldn't possibly go wrong looking in that direction.

Good luck.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Are most of you guys using Federal Brass? Have you noted any difference between different Mfg. of brass with this cartridge?


EZ

quote:

Have you noted any difference between different Mfg. of brass with this cartridge?

I use Bell brass in my .470 Francotte.

Anytime you change any reloading component, you need to redevelop your load for the rifle. So yes, you can get different results from changing components.

quote:

Where would you get the filler?

Go to Wal-Mart and buy a bag of dacron (pillow stuffing). Costs about $3 and will last about 10,000 reloads.

I emailed Woodleigh and here is what they said. Their load recommendations were a little more conservative that what I have seen here which is not suprising.

******************************
Use Federal 215 primer

500gr SN bullet

100-104 grains IMR 4831 or H4831SC or

83-85 grains REL 15 or

90-95 grains IMR 4350.

The 4831 loads seem to be most popular, if more than ¼” air space is present, a foam rubber wad or styro foam balls usually help.

For FMJ reduce SN load by 3 grains then work up if necessary.
*****************************

I also asked a follow up question about the need for a foam filler and here was their response.

"Wads help make the velocity more consistent. If your rifle shoots OK don’t bother with them."

j10....I can tell you from personal experience that the 4831 loads KICK MORE than the RL15 loads....and you will need a foam plug for the RL 15 loads.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

jeh10:

I have an article by Ross Seyfried that was published in the December 1999 issue of HANDLOADER MAGAZINE. According to Mr. Seyfried, to get a Reloder 15 load for most of the nitro express cartridges you simply take the original cordite load and multiply it by 1.19 and use the correct Woodleigh bullet. According to John Taylor's AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, the original cordite load for the .470 Nitro Express was 75 grains with a 500 grain bullet. Thus, your load would be 89.25 grains of Reloder 15 (75 X 1.19= 89.25) with a 500 grain Woodleigh. He suggests six or seven grains of Dacron filler for the .470 which you can get at any fabric shop or, as suggested above, at you local Walmart. He also suggests starting two grains less just to be safe.

You can also use IMR 4831 and, in most cases, dispense with the necessity of the filler. Again, take the cordite load and multiply it by 1.333. For you .470 that would be 75 X 1.333 = 99.9 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain Woodleigh. That should give you a good starting load. When I did this for my .404 Jeffery, I started at 79 grains of IMR 4831 and had to work up to 83 grains to get the right velocity. You are going to have to have a chronograph to get this right.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Are most of you guys using Federal Brass? Have you noted any difference between different Mfg. of brass with this cartridge?


EZ

You will need to start over when developing a load if you change anything.
You will find there are a lot of difference in case capacity between makers and even between lots from the same maker. I would start with weighing any different cases to see if they were heavier or lighter then check case volume. I would reduce charge more in the smaller capacity cases and not as much in the bigger cases to see how they regulate.
Federal claims to use RL15 with out a foam wad. The only problem is they have a primer we can’t get and some have reported erratic velocities. I think the foam wad helps to keep the velocity more consistent. RL15 seams to be position sensitive.
Bill

I bought the foam wads today; Ed, thanks for the tip on where to get them.
I think I like the idea of the RL 15 @ 89 gr's to begin with. I plan to use Fed 215's and Swift A frames to begin with and some Hornady solids when they become available.
It would appear that the Woodleigh softs may open up a little more than the Swifts from all accounts on this board @ 2150 FPS?

jeh10:

The conversions from the original Cordite to RL 15 and IMR 4831 are rough guides. As the data you got from Woodleigh suggests, they're not starting loads, especially to RL 15. The .470 used 75 grains Cordite. The conversion to RL 15 of 119% would be 89 grains. In the 75 Cordite rifles (.500/.465, .470, etc.), I usually start at 83 grains. With some lots of that powder, 89 grains would have been a nasty overload. Federal's original load used 87 grains, and is hotter than the original Cordite ammo. Work up carefully shooting over a chronograph. You DO want to use a filler in .470 with RL 15. Much better consistency.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

jeh10:

400 Nitro Express makes a good point. In the Seyfriend article that I have, Ross suggests that "It is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge, just to be on the safe side". However, I don't think the the 89 grain load of Reloder 15 is a "nasty overload". Most of the guys who gave loads above where using 87-90 grains of Reloader 15 but it is always a good idea to start low and work up.

Dave

jeh10

Alliant powders web site has 2 loads listed under the New Recipies tab, for 470 NE with RL 19 and 22 Pressure tested with no filler.
I have not played with them yet, but will soon.
Cheers
Nitro450exp

In Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle", he refers to the formula of 1.19 times the cordite charge. In the table of loads he lists 85gr of RL15 with a 500gr bullet and Fed215 primer. I started at 83 and the regulation was perfect at 87gr with all three bullets---500gr Woodleigh solids and softs and the Swift A Frame.

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Scarboro:
In Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle", he refers to the formula of 1.19 times the cordite charge. In the table of loads he lists 85gr of RL15 with a 500gr bullet and Fed215 primer. I started at 83 and the regulation was perfect at 87gr with all three bullets---500gr Woodleigh solids and softs and the Swift A Frame.

Yeah, the last time I did it 86 grains gave standard velocity and perfect regulation, 87 was too fast and crossing, and 89 would have been way over.

The point is that the conversion isn't intended to be anything more than a rough guide because it can't be. Density variance between lots is simply too great. That's why Graeme gives 85 grains RL 15, rather than the straight conversion of 89.25 grains. It's also why you need the chronograph.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Has anyone chrono'd the 86 and 87 gr loads?
At what range was it regulating at? 50 yards, 60 yards?

thanks,
EZ

With my Merkel it regulated at 100yds with 87gr of RL15. My chronograph is showing an error signal so I am trying to get a freind of mine to bring his to the range next weekend.

Guys, I am new to this double rifle fraternity.
I may asked some dumb questions from time to time. I have reloaded for 40 years and own a old Oehler 35 chrono so I have the operation to begin my testing with my Heym 88.

I have noted dialog about regulation and crossing of the bullets in the (R&L) barrels based on velocity. However, what do factories typically regulated their doubles at in range? Is it always 100 yards? If so and you wanted to the gun to regulated at 60 yards would you increase the velocity a bit?
I suppose you can tailor your regulation with velocity.
I am a mechanical engineer however this appears more an "art" than science.

EZ

EZ,
I think you have it figured out. I have been reloading for 39 years now and double rifles have been my new challenge. Graeme Wright's book helped me get started and reading threads on this site filled in the gaps. Velocity is the key to regulation for the gun and individual shooting it. I just checked and all three of my Merkels were regulated with Federal ammo at 50 meters (2 in 470 and 1 in 500NE). I think my 9.3x74 was regulated at 70 meters. I started at 50yds and once I got it shooting together I went to 100yds and made final adjustments to the load.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I have noted dialog about regulation and crossing of the bullets in the (R&L) barrels based on velocity.

They cross when velocity is too high.

quote:

However, what do factories typically regulated their doubles at in range? Is it always 100 yards?

Rarely. If they're regulated with express sights, it's usually 50 meters, as was the case with your Heym.

quote:

If so and you wanted to the gun to regulated at 60 yards would you increase the velocity a bit?

No. This is one of the most common misconceptions about double rifles. "Regulated at 50 meters" doesn't mean that the barrels are supposed cross at or beyond that range. It just means that the regulator worked at that range. Ideal regulation is the right barrel printing on the right and the left on the left, maybe .75" or so apart at 50 or 100 meters. This is all that's required for use at any sporting range.

quote:

I suppose you can tailor your regulation with velocity.
I am a mechanical engineer however this appears more an "art" than science.

Generally, yes, regulation is slaved to velocity. Easy for a mechanical engineer to understand.

The movement of the barrels into their recoil arcs begins as the bullet enters the throat, and they remain in motion while the bullet traverses the bore - "barrel time". This is true with any gun, but it creates a special problem with the double rifle because the recoil arcs during barrel time are different for each barrel. Consequently, the barrels can't be parallel if a bullet from each is to strike the same POA. At the bench, they're set up with a slight predetermined convergence in the horizontal plane, and a slight divergence in the vertical. This convergence/divergence is then fine tuned at the range by the regulator by firing R/L pairs of the ammunition the rifle is to be used with, and then heating the solder of the ribs and moving the wedge to adjust.

Once regulated, finding the "sweet spot" is a matter of duplicating the ammunition it was regulated with, and velocity is usually crucial, although some rifles aren't as sensitive as others. Generally, if velocity is too high, barrel time is then too short, and the barrels won't swing as far from POA before the bullet exits as they did with the regulation ammunition, and the barrels will cross-fire. Too slow, they'll ride the bores too long, and shoot wide. A chronograph is an enormous help here.

Once you've found the handload that matches the regulation load, you're not really done, unless your rifle is one that is particularly insensitive to changes in velocity, due to the density variance I referred to above. For example, I finished a previous lot of RL 15 in one of mine, a .400, last fall. It gave standard velocity and perfect regulation at 68 grains, but 68 grains with the new lot was slow and wide. It took 71 grains of the new lot to achieve the same velocity and get the regulation back right again. It can just as easily go the other way. That's why a charge that's perfect with one lot can be way too hot with another lot. The chronograph will tell the tale.

The chrono can also help you keep your loads in spec. Some of the newer .470s that were regulated with Federal were regulated pretty fast (not all, as lot to lot velocity of it is all over the place). With 500 grain, 2150 fps is just possible in a 24" barrel, but it's right at red-line. Beyond that is over the pressure limit.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Movement of the barrels into the recoil arcs begins as the bullet enters the throat? I will have to think on this a bit?? I really do not think so. The pressure in the barrel is equal on "all" axis's and surfaces UNTIl the projectile breaches the barrel. There can be no unequal pressure exerted backwards or otherwise, In fact the friction of the bullet moving down the barrel pushing forward theorteically should pull the gun forward away from you.
This theory is how muzzle breaks work. They release pressure 90 degrees from the axis of the projectile direction diverting excess pressure from the muzzle when the bullet exist the barrel.
The force or pressure in the barrel along with with the mass of the projectile will yield a specified recoil as the bullet immediately leave the barrel.
An easy experiment is simply putting a spray gun on a water hose. Turn the water on low and fill the hose and hold the spray gun in you hand. No recoil or pressure! Up the pressure and still no recoil. Now; squeeze the handle; you get a reaction! Same theory! By holding you hand below axis of the jet, you get a jump not unlike a rifle recoil where your recoil pad is lower than the axis of the barrel.
Easy for a mechanical engineer to understand. Elementary fluid mechanics!

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I am a mechanical engineer however this appears more an "art" than science.

Well, I tried, but you were right and I was wrong. It's over your head. I won't make that mistake again.

---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400; you could make me a believer if I could see some high speed photography where the muzzle would rise and there was a rearward motion of the rifle prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle.
I am not all set in my ways! I am not that "old" and cantankerous yet.
Think about a champagne bottle; shake it up good and build up some pressure (use the cheap stuff).
Pop the cork; you get a little "recoil". But not until the cork clears the bottle and the gas is released.
I am trying to understand your method of thought; not trying to be a smart a__!

I might contend that all rifles actually learch forward prior to recoil. It would be micro seconds.
The only single "directional" axial forces (X axis only) that might afford a forward or rearward movement in the barrel chamber are frictional forces where the bullet slides along the barrel. This should pull the gun forward.
As an experiment just put a brass brush on a cleaning rod and insert it through the muzzle of a shotgun down to the chamber. Hold on to the shotgun and have someone withdraw the brush and rod quickly. This simulates a bullet going down a barrel; It will pull the gun away from you.
The higher the velocity; the higher the frictional forces on a given bearing surface, so the greater the force forward. It will actually pull the barrel down with typical / conventional stock designs.
This is where you may see faster loads shoot lower on down range targets.
All of this happens way faster than can be monitored with our eyes. (Theoretically)
Another good example is an air rifle. They use compressed gas rather than an expanding gas. The mass of the projectile is small and most of the stored energy is consumed prior to the pellet leaving the barrel.
These guns actually recoil forward (albeit very small amounts)! I understand there are special scopes made for air rifles made to resist forward recoil.

------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
400; you could make me a believer if I could see some high speed photography where the muzzle would rise and there was a rearward motion of the rifle prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle.
I am not all set in my ways! I am not that "old" and cantankerous yet.
Think about a champagne bottle; shake it up good and build up some pressure (use the cheap stuff).
Pop the cork; you get a little "recoil". But not until the cork clears the bottle and the gas is released.
I am trying to understand your method of thought; not trying to be a smart a__!

The thing called barrel time is a concept that has been understood by double rifle makers for two hundred years. It is not a myth, nor magic, it is simply the way a double rifle regulates!

quote:

By eezridr:
I might contend that all rifles actually learch forward prior to recoil. It would be micro seconds.
The only single "directional" axial forces (X axis only) that might afford a forward or rearward movement in the barrel chamber are frictional forces where the bullet slides along the barrel. This should pull the gun forward.
As an experiment just put a brass brush on a cleaning rod and insert it through the muzzle of a shotgun down to the chamber. Hold on to the shotgun and have someone withdraw the brush and rod quickly. This simulates a bullet going down a barrel; It will pull the gun away from you.
The higher the velocity; the higher the frictional forces on a given bearing surface, so the greater the force forward. It will actually pull the barrel down with typical / conventional stock designs.
This is where you may see faster loads shoot lower on down range targets.
All of this happens way faster than can be monitored with our eyes. (Theoretically)
Another good example is an air rifle. They use compressed gas rather than an expanding gas. The mass of the projectile is small and most of the stored energy is consumed prior to the pellet leaving the barrel.
These guns actually recoil forward (albeit very small amounts)! I understand there are special scopes made for air rifles made to resist forward recoil.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAP! .............BYE!

None are so blind as those who will not see!..........