I do not own a double rifle as yet. From what I have read on the forum it would appear to me that the ideal, if perhaps not the perfect, caliber for a double rifle would be the .458 Lott. Where do I go wrong?

Never heard of a DR being chambered for .458 Lott....

.458 Winny, yes, but never the Lott.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
Never heard of a DR being chambered for .458 Lott....

I have not as well, and it caused me to wonder why?

The 458 Lott is a rimless cartridge and while DRs are chambered for rimless cartirdges, most folks will tell you rimmed cartridges are to be preferred. The reason being rimmed cartridges are considered more reliable when in comes to ejection or extraction...

With full house loads, the Lott operates at higher pressure than say a 470NE, lower pressure is preferred with a DR.

Here's a .458 Lott in a double made by a well respected company:

Famars Lott Double

Definitely a bad choice.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I'd want a 3rd, 4th, and 5th fastener on a 458 Lott DR! Toooooo much pressure!

quote:

I'd want a 3rd, 4th, and 5th fastener on a 458 Lott DR! Toooooo much pressure!

Amen, Andy! AMEN!

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I do not own a double rifle as yet. From what I have read on the forum it would appear to me that the ideal, if perhaps not the perfect, caliber for a double rifle would be the .458 Lott. Where do I go wrong?

1. Way too much pressure and it will be off face in 50 rounds.

2. Not a rimmed round so not the most reliable setup for dangerous game.

If you want more than the 470 Nitro, the 500 Nitro beckons you.

quote:

the 500 Nitro beckons you.

And is a hell of a fun round to shoot!!!!!

Thanks to all of you. I have an understanding of the reasons not to go in that direction. The 450/400 or the 470 NE are probably the way to go for what my purposes would be.

What Dan said above!

Bill,
The 470 is the round all others are judged by.
The 450/400 3 inch becuase I own one and it's probably the best "all around chambering" for a double rifle if there is such a thing.

YOu want the following in a double rifle.
A flanged, low pressure case to deliver a large caliber bullet with ease of extraction or ejection. And you want the chambering to end in the words "Nitro Express" !

Ernest,
That's an interesting gun you found for sale. I wonder what motivated the buyer to request that Famars make him a double in that caliber? No doubt it was specially ordered.
As you may recall, a Famars DR is basically the same gun as mine (of course mine doesn't have all the engraving) as they do much of the work for Beretta when they make their double rifles. That's a good looking gun for sale, but in a .458 Lott I doubt he'll get anywhere near his $49M asking price.

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I do not own a double rifle as yet. From what I have read on the forum it would appear to me that the ideal, if perhaps not the perfect, caliber for a double rifle would be the .458 Lott. Where do I go wrong?

458 Lott?? Never!

To high pressure no rim.

450 N.E. 3 1/4 or 500/416 N.E. would be my choice.

I'm going to run in, drop a grenade, then scurry out.

375 H&H SAAMI Max 62000psi/53000cup
458 Win SAAMI Max 60000psi/53000cup
458 Lott SAAMI Max 62500psi/53500cup

So is it really higher in pressure, maybe a little.

All same head size, so bolt thrust (per se) is almost the same.

The only thing I can think of is the increased recoil due to the higher powder charge and the increased velocity of the bullet. But if you ran the numbers, I bet 470 or 500 NE has more recoil.

Obviously there are reasons that it's not chambered in a DR, but pressure is not one of them.

Just trying to dispel one of the myths that I always see tossed around.

syd-jai:

Nope. Pressure has everything to do with it. None of the three cartridges you listed are proper double rifle cartridges because they are rimless, and, as the figures you were kind enough to provide show, generate pressures that are too high for ideal use in a double rifle.

Most of the flanged nitros intended for use in double rifles generate 20 - 25% less pressure than those three, and that difference is critical for any drop-down barrel action. For example, the .500/.416 NE generates 39,885 CUP/44,962 PSI.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400-

I agree with you that none of those I listed are "proper" DR cartridges, for exactly those reasons that you mentioned. (rimless and comparatively high pressure).

But it is strange that most DR makers do list the 375 H&H as available (Heym, Merkel, Krieghoff) and a very few list the 458 Win (Heym), and apparently only Famars lists the 458 Lott.

What I was pointing out that most of the arguments against it were that it was too high of pressure, when the 458 Win was deemed OK.

Reference 577NE's post above ".458 Winny, yes, but never the Lott." Many others said the Lott's pressure was too high. It's not any higher than those other cartridges that are chambered.

But I wholeheartedly agree that none of them are good DR cartridges. Just pointing out that the pressure of those 3 cartridges is essentially the same.

quote:

Reference 577NE's post above ".458 Winny, yes, but never the Lott." Many others said the Lott's pressure was too high. It's not any higher than those other cartridges that are chambered.

For clarification on my behalf, my statement should have read "I have heard of a DR in .458 Winny, but never a Lott."

No doubt, the belted LOTT is NOT the best choice for a DR.

As far as pressure goes, in the A-SQUARE manual there are 2 loads which look interesting, 26 " BBL and 465 grain bullet.

WW748 powder / 80.0 grains / 2067 FPS / PSI pressure 30,700

WW748 powder / 90.0 grains / 2298 FPS / PSI pressure 41,800

Take this to half way between and we get 85.0 grains powder and 2182 FPS. Likely pressure PSI 36,700.

This ain't lookin bad.

Now, if we turn down the belt, do we end up with a (SLIGHTLY) rimmed, low pressure, correct velocity round THAT IS CHEAP TOO?!?!?!

RIP, 400NE jump in here PLEASE!

Jack it sounds like what your describing is a blown out 375 Flanged. But then that defeats the "cheap" part of your equation!! Or maybe a 45-120, but I don't think those cases are cheap either.

syd-jai:

Yes, I misunderstood you. You're right of course.


Jack:

Your point is well taken. The Lott is fine cartridge. It is what the Winchester would have been had they not gotten caught up in the idiotic 50's short magnum craze. However, factory ammunition robs the Lott of it's greatest beauty - the ability to drive 500 grain bullets at a true 2150 fps at a pressure that is sensible for a DGR. Dumb.

There really isn't a need for a sensibly loaded Lott in a DR anyway. We already have three .450s that will do the same thing - .450 3 1/4", .500/.450 3 1/4", and .450 No. 2.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."