I just saw that Hendershot's Sporting Goods in Hancock, Maryland has a new Merkel 450-400 with ejectors. I did not know Merkel was building guns in this caliber. Hendershot's gun is serial #2 !!!! Check it out at their web site.

Merkel had them at SCI Show this year. I think they have been available for some time now??
what's Hendershot's web address? Thanks.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

This is good news,Merkels are good for the money,my 470 was not dissapointing in any way,the price has to come down to a more reasonable level though,than what these are listed at.

Yea, but it's ten pounds four ounces and has a hogsback stock....

I own a 10 lb 450/400. It's perfect for me!

Dave....meaning what?

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Dave....meaning what?

It's 3 lbs. overweight?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Dave....meaning what?

It's 3 lbs. overweight?

3 pounds less would make the rifle 7 pounds and four oz! Hell my 9.3X74R double rifle weighs in at 8 pounds 4 oz, and it still lets you know you have pulled the trigger with full 286 gr loads!

I don't see any big bore double at 10 pounds to be out of line. Most of my bolt rifles above 338 Win Mag are 10 pounds or a little over, with scopes mounted.

Personally I'd like a 9.5 pound 450/400NE 3" double rifle, that would be 10.5 pounds with a scope and rings attached. Perfect!

The engraving on that Merkel is far better than usual, but still not real good, and the price is on the high side retail by about $1000. I could live with the weight, but not the price!

The Hogback stock is no problem at all, they may not look the way you might like, but they usually feel perfect when shouldered. Besides, the hog back is easily remedied, by simply shaveing off about 1/4" of wood from the top of the stock, makeing it a streight come!

I think it is a pound or so too heavy!

Mac suggested a scope. C'mon guys, this is a 450/400. Kynock ammo is running at 2125 out of a 30 inch barrel. That means in this gun it will be running closer to 2000 fps. Not really a long range rig is it? Does it really need a scope?

Dave

My 9,3x74R Chapuis weighs 7 1/4 lbs without the scope. Many people think that is too light.

My 450/400 weighs 10lbs and an ounce or two cannot remember exactly. It handles and shoots perfect.

Dave I scoped my 450/400 before my last Safari.

I wish I had scoped it the day I bought it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I think it is a pound or so too heavy!

Mac suggested a scope. C'mon guys, this is a 450/400. Kynock ammo is running at 2125 out of a 30 inch barrel. That means in this gun it will be running closer to 2000 fps. Not really a long range rig is it? Does it really need a scope?

Dave

Dave what makes you think a scope is only for long range shooting? The scope is simply a better sight than any iron sight, no matter the range. However there are times when the Irons are much better, that's true, but the scope is far better when light is beginning to fail, or if a need arises where you need to thread a bullet through a tiny hole in the bush with out hitting an un-seen twig with the necked eye. There is a time when a lighted crosshair is a fine thing to have on a black buffalo, standing in heavy shade. Those black crosshairs have a bad habit of disappearing on a black background, and the irons are not better in that respect, when the light is not good.

I have no idea why so many people find the addition of a scope sight on a double rifle to be a NO NO! Bolt rifles chambered for cartridges of .400 up to .505 caliber are routinely fitted with scope sights even when fitted with quality iron sights, yet no one thinks twice about it.

The difference between a scope's use on a double rifle is opposite that of the bolt, single shot, or any single barrel rifle.

A rifle used for dangerous game should always be fitted with a quality set of iron sights, along with a scope in quick detach (that return to zero) rings and bases. On the single barrel rifle the scope is primary, and the irons are back, and special purpose sights. On the double rifle the rifle set up the same way, the irons are primary, and the scope is a specialty sight, that is back up for broken, or bent iron sight, and can be attached for special purposes.

Gentlemen, lets get over this anti-scope on double rifle syndrome, and enjoy any rifle that is set up to avoid all the draw-backs that may occur ten thousand mile from home, and gunsmith!

I have two 9.3x74R rifles. At 3.3 and 3.6 kilograms, I don't think they are too light. They are hunting guns. You carry them more than you shoot them (and I don't think the caliber is punishing).

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Yea, but it's ten pounds four ounces and has a hogsback stock....

No, it is 10 pounds 2 ounces and it has a straight stock!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I think it is a pound or so too heavy!

Mac suggested a scope. C'mon guys, this is a 450/400. Kynock ammo is running at 2125 out of a 30 inch barrel. That means in this gun it will be running closer to 2000 fps. Not really a long range rig is it? Does it really need a scope?

Dave

Dave what makes you think a scope is only for long range shooting? The scope is simply a better sight than any iron sight, no matter the range. However there are times when the Irons are much better, that's true, but the scope is far better when light is beginning to fail, or if a need arises where you need to thread a bullet through a tiny hole in the bush with out hitting an un-seen twig with the necked eye. There is a time when a lighted crosshair is a fine thing to have on a black buffalo, standing in heavy shade. Those black crosshairs have a bad habit of disappearing on a black background, and the irons are not better in that respect, when the light is not good.

I have no idea why so many people find the addition of a scope sight on a double rifle to be a NO NO! Bolt rifles chambered for cartridges of .400 up to .505 caliber are routinely fitted with scope sights even when fitted with quality iron sights, yet no one thinks twice about it.

The difference between a scope's use on a double rifle is opposite that of the bolt, single shot, or any single barrel rifle.

A rifle used for dangerous game should always be fitted with a quality set of iron sights, along with a scope in quick detach (that return to zero) rings and bases. On the single barrel rifle the scope is primary, and the irons are back, and special purpose sights. On the double rifle the rifle set up the same way, the irons are primary, and the scope is a specialty sight, that is back up for broken, or bent iron sight, and can be attached for special purposes.

Gentlemen, lets get over this anti-scope on double rifle syndrome, and enjoy any rifle that is set up to avoid all the draw-backs that may occur ten thousand mile from home, and gunsmith!

Mac:

It is just a difference in perspective. I come from the bolt rifle side. I have never seen a double as a solitary instrument. I see a double as part of a battery, a compliment to a scope sighted bolt rifle. I think the perfect battery is lighter scope sighted bolt, say a 9.3,.375 or perhaps a .416 for those longer shots or lighter game with a good heavy double (400, 416, 470, .500. etc.) for the follow up or closer shots at heavy game. To me, the BEAUTY of a double is that it is NOT scoped so when circumstances require, it it available for quick action.

I have to confess that there is an aesthetic bias here as well. I have seen pictures of some extraordinary doubles on these very pages. For me anyway, hanging a scope on some of these guns is just like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.... understand?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Dave....meaning what?

It's 3 lbs. overweight?

I think about 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 lbs too heavy. At ten pounds two or four onces, it ought to be a 450NE or a 470NE. Why lug the same weight and shoot less rifle?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Dave....meaning what?

It's 3 lbs. overweight?

, it ought to be a 450NE or a 470NE. Why lug the same weight and shoot less rifle?

JPK

Very true, and particularly if you plan on scoping it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I think it is a pound or so too heavy!

Mac suggested a scope. C'mon guys, this is a 450/400. Kynock ammo is running at 2125 out of a 30 inch barrel. That means in this gun it will be running closer to 2000 fps. Not really a long range rig is it? Does it really need a scope?

Dave

Dave what makes you think a scope is only for long range shooting? The scope is simply a better sight than any iron sight, no matter the range. However there are times when the Irons are much better, that's true, but the scope is far better when light is beginning to fail, or if a need arises where you need to thread a bullet through a tiny hole in the bush with out hitting an un-seen twig with the necked eye. There is a time when a lighted crosshair is a fine thing to have on a black buffalo, standing in heavy shade. Those black crosshairs have a bad habit of disappearing on a black background, and the irons are not better in that respect, when the light is not good.

I have no idea why so many people find the addition of a scope sight on a double rifle to be a NO NO! Bolt rifles chambered for cartridges of .400 up to .505 caliber are routinely fitted with scope sights even when fitted with quality iron sights, yet no one thinks twice about it.

The difference between a scope's use on a double rifle is opposite that of the bolt, single shot, or any single barrel rifle.

A rifle used for dangerous game should always be fitted with a quality set of iron sights, along with a scope in quick detach (that return to zero) rings and bases. On the single barrel rifle the scope is primary, and the irons are back, and special purpose sights. On the double rifle the rifle set up the same way, the irons are primary, and the scope is a specialty sight, that is back up for broken, or bent iron sight, and can be attached for special purposes.

Gentlemen, lets get over this anti-scope on double rifle syndrome, and enjoy any rifle that is set up to avoid all the draw-backs that may occur ten thousand mile from home, and gunsmith!

Mac:

It is just a difference in perspective. I come from the bolt rifle side. I have never seen a double as a solitary instrument. I see a double as part of a battery, a compliment to a scope sighted bolt rifle. I think the perfect battery is lighter scope sighted bolt, say a 9.3,.375 or perhaps a .416 for those longer shots or lighter game with a good heavy double (400, 416, 470, .500. etc.) for the follow up or closer shots at heavy game. To me, the BEAUTY of a double is that it is NOT scoped so when circumstances require, it it available for quick action.

I have to confess that there is an aesthetic bias here as well. I have seen pictures of some extraordinary doubles on these very pages. For me anyway, hanging a scope on some of these guns is just like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.... understand?

Dave

I get your position on this but the double rifle is not just a follow-up rifle, and is as good a hunting rifle as any bolt rifle. One just must understand them. As I said in the above post, the double rifle is carried with the irons, and is fitted with the scope when needed, where the bolt rifle is carried with the scope attached, and removed when needed.

I think you are under the common misconception that a double rifle is not capable of long range well placed shots. That is not true, the double rifle with the proper loads for the rifle is as accurate as any hunting rifle used for big game, under field conditions.

I have on many occasions taken a 375 H&H bolt rifle along with my heavy caliber double, but not always. Today I use a pair of double rifles as my battery. One is a 470NE, and the other is a 9.3X74R and have made shots out to 250 yds on deer, and plains game with the 9.3, and several 200 yd shots with the 470NE. I will not pass a good eland at 200 yds simply because I'm carrying as 470NE double rifle.

If loaded properly, and the scope zeroed properly there is no handicap with using a double rifle for long shots. You see, contrary to popular belief, the shots do NOT cross at any range, and they are only hindered by the rainbow trajectory, just like any large bore rifle. The accurate range that a double rifle is useful to is only limited by the iron sights, and the shooter's understanding of his rifle, nothing more!

I understand the purest's reluctance to put a scope on a double rifle, but the factories have done this as long as scopes have been around. This is because the makers understand the double rifle's capabilities, and the general public, especially in the USA does not! The Europians have been useing scopes on double rifles for a very long time. The reason is for many uses the scope just makes the double rifle a for more useful tool! However, single barrel or double, the rifle should be fitted with quality iron sights, and the scope should never be mounted on a double, or single in solid mounts that do not return to zero if removed, and re-installed.

Mac:

I think a scope on a 9.3X74 does indeed make a lot of sense.

I recall reading in one of John Taylor's books a quote, I think by Dr. Sutton, something to the effect that if he were retuning to Africe he would take a magazine rifle in 9.3X62 and a .470 double. That's what makes the most sense to me but I understand that this is a matter of personal preference.

Dave

Will,
Where can you find a 7 pound 450/400?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Will,
Where can you find a 7 pound 450/400?

Now Rusty you know there is no such thing.

Didn't the guy at Evolution get a 400 down to 9 lbs.?

Yea, a nine pound 450-400 would be nice, since my 500 weighs 10.7 lbs I can't imagine carrying a 450-400 that was close to the same weight.

My vote, 450/400 weight at 9p 8oz up to 9p 12oz is ideal.

Up to 10 pounds is correct. Mine is a little "fat" 10p 7oz.

but it's 28 bbls may be the source of

the "extra" 7oz.