So what is the historical velocity of a 4 bore black powder cartridge and what length barrel was used for said velocity?

That round used a 1/4 pound round ball loaded into it's brass cartridge, did it NOT?

Jack,

If I recall correctly, I think it was not higher than around 1850 fps. I'll keep looking.

In the mid 1800's they did not have the concept of rifling down. We now know that to shoot a bigger bullet (i.e. longer) we need to speed up the twist on the rifling. With no way to accommodate bigger bullets in a given caliber, they had to go to a larger caliber.

The 4 bore (bore diameter 1.052 inches) with a 14 dram charge of black powder put out a quarter pound of lead (1882 grains)generating 8832 foot pounds of muzzle energy resulting in over 158 foot pounds of recoil in a 24 pound rifle. A 700 nitro in a 19 pound rifle merely pounds you with 136 foot pounds of recoil.

158 pounds of recoil? An orthopedic surgeon's dream!

Jack

Historically the 4 bore was a beast of many colours, both paper and brass cases were used of varying lengths from 3.75" to the Rewa 4.25" case. Bullets also varied from spherical balls to conical 1850 grain lead although 2000 grain cast bullets were also used, some entailing a steel penetrator tip being moulded into the meplat.

Sir Samuel Baker's "Baby" made for him by Henry Holland was initially said to have been a 2 bore, but with a bore size of around the inch, it was in essence a 4 bore, (the present custodians of the rifle confirm this), with this rifle Sir Samuel did on a number (probably quite few) occassions fire a 1/2 lb (3500 grain) bullets with a 1/2 ounce of fine grained priming powder behind a primer in the bullet to create a bursting shell. He reports firing this load on only a very few occassions!!

Also bore diameter varied from maker to maker and from muzzle loader to breach loader, dimensions from as low as .930" to 1.050" were not uncommon

Powder charges similarly varied although consensus appears to give the 12 drams the title of standard heavy charge, this equated to roughly 325 grains in modern currency ?? ( I am trading from memory here and do not presently have the actual facts before me, but can get this for tomorrow).

Some users, just like today, did venture above this load, 14 drams (drachms) has been mentioned in the past

Barrel length was ordinarily in the 22- 24 inch ball park and velocities varied usually in the 1300 -1500 fps range dependant on the exact bullet weight.

Aslo just to add to the confusion, some of the 4 bore rifles, including doubles, were actually smootbored throughout. It is from these arms that the round ball was generally favoured.

Thank you both for your input, I look forward to further data as it is submitted.

Pre WW I of all the 4 bores built, were they mostly muzzle loaders or cartridge using breech loaders?

Jack

I now have my data before me and note that also a 3.5" rolled brass over heavy paper cased version of the 4 bore existed.

In regard to velocity the only data I have suggests a 1882 conical bullet ahead of 12 drs of Curtis and Harvey no 7 powder. (328.08 grains)- for a velocity of 1330 fps at the muzzle and 7387 ft/lbs energy.

for the spherical bullet of 1250 grains ahead of 12 drs mv = 1460 fps for a energy of 5912 ft. lbs.

both muzzle and breach loader existed although it is fairly certain that those in use until the early 1920's were breach loaders.

Unlike safarikids(Toms) Owens 4 bore hammerless, all the British 4 bore loads used lead bullets of varying degrees of hardness, some with steel inserts moulded into the meplat.

Eley did load a 4" case with 1800 grain bullet ahead of 14 drs around about the 1920's for use in India, but as yet I have found no data for this load, recoil would have been certainly noticeable!

The version loaded by Hollands (or rather for Holland and Holland) with the 4.25" case was made for HH the Maharajah of Rewa and was loaded with a lead bullet ahead of 75 grains of cordite.

328 grains of black powder - I guess that puts to rest the tought of experiencing a gentle push....

I wonder how may grains are in the average "handful". I have read where the hunter would essentially use a handful as the measure for powder.

selous wrote about using a handfull of powder.

to find out how many grains in a handfull is easy.

get 2-3 cans of powder, empty out your wifes purse, pour in the powder then scoop out a handfull and put it on the scale.

you may have to use the bathroom scale !

and be sure to clean out the purse when you're done . good luck, tomo577

Jack,
I think most all 4-bores made after about 1880 were cartridge guns, paper first then brass. Ross Seyfried has two good articles, one in the July 01 issue of Rifle Magazine (Article) and another in the Winter 96 issue of Black Powder Hunting. I don't have my copies in front of me but back issues of both are available. The second article covers his hunting aussie buff with a William Evans which gave 1500fps with 1400gn balls and 16drams if I remember correctly. In the story he shoots a feral donkey end-to-end with a pure lead round ball and a buff with an explosive shell (~1800gns and 12 drams IIRC). Fun stuff.
I've got a 1540gn round ball mould but haven't fired any, but 2133gn conicals range from a sedate 800fps (8 drams Fg) to a throughly unpleasant 1200fps (14dms FFg) from a 27" barrel. A great stock and recoil pad make things bearable, but even the 8dm loads bruise through a shoulder pad and will lift your front foot if your stance is poor. It's a hoot!

Bob

Bob,
thanks for posting that link. at one time i had those articles myself, but i'd have to do a major bit of house re-arranging to find them and still may not be able to turn them up. i think the buffalo and donkey hunt first appeared in guns and ammo around '84 or so.

I liked the article alot, I wish I could get it to print right.

I keep having the right side fail to make it onto the page...

I am grateful to you guys for this information.

I do, very much, enjoy being educated here.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
I liked the article alot, I wish I could get it to print right.

I keep having the right side fail to make it onto the page...

Go to print preview and adjust the margins until it fits.