Would really like some opinions on value for this rifle.

Thx in advance!

https://www.proxibid.com/Cogsw...Information/53585313

It's been restocked and cheaply re blued. Several months ago it was offered at $6500. Many have emailed me to ask my opinion of the rifle. I placed a value on it months ago at $3-3500 tops. I mean it's better than a Sabatti but the cost to return it to it's original glory would be cost prohibitive. If the restock was done to original lines what would have been a strong plus--but it was not. I would buy it for 3K for a shooter in the rains of Alaska's hunt season but that's all. There is a reson it has not sold and the price keeps going south.
Cal

It looks clean but kind of minimalist for a London rifle, and the angles on the grip cap look a bit naff. Considering the economic collapse happening under Covid19, I wouldn't offer any more than $15,000.

Thank you, gentlemen!

It has been offered here before.

Assuming the bores are ok i'd say $3000. That's a terrible restock in every way.

C&H rifles tend to test the bottom of the market even when the market is good. The only thing good about this rifle is the caliber. I think one would be better to wait for something else to come up for sale.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
It looks clean but kind of minimalist for a London rifle, and the angles on the grip cap look a bit naff. Considering the economic collapse happening under Covid19, I wouldn't offer any more than $15,000.

$15000 Really?
Must be a typo from $1500.
C

Fellas:
A gentleman with far more knowledge of doubles than I just emailed me an observation that must be shared with you. I have seen this photo of the barrel flats/lumps prior and this totally escaped me.

Note the rear lump. It is not original and is a replacement. Notice the space where it fits into the recess. This rifle is absolutely NOT safe to shoot with nitro pressures.

I kept the photo to a large format to easily see the issue.
Cal

Criminal!

Cal is correct that it would be cost prohibitive to restore and then dollars spent on pennies. Never recoup your cost. I owned a CH in 450-400 3 1/4. With 50 yard standing leaf it shot about 8 inches high. Needed a few other things but I had acquired it so cheap and made a very small profit when I sold it. Buyer knew about the high poa. I thought a new front sight would look garish. No more CH's for me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cal pappas:
Fellas:
A gentleman with far more knowledge of doubles than I just emailed me an observation that must be shared with you. I have seen this photo of the barrel flats/lumps prior and this totally escaped me.

Note the rear lump. It is not original and is a replacement. Notice the space where it fits into the recess. This rifle is absolutely NOT safe to shoot with nitro pressures.

I kept the photo to a large format to easily see the issue.
Cal

Thank you for the education. To verify, the parting line visible around the rear lump would normally be joined with a weld or braze/ silver solder?

quote:

Originally posted by 3584ELK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cal pappas:
Fellas:
A gentleman with far more knowledge of doubles than I just emailed me an observation that must be shared with you. I have seen this photo of the barrel flats/lumps prior and this totally escaped me.

Note the rear lump. It is not original and is a replacement. Notice the space where it fits into the recess. This rifle is absolutely NOT safe to shoot with nitro pressures.

I kept the photo to a large format to easily see the issue.
Cal

Thank you for the education. To verify, the parting line visible around the rear lump would normally be joined with a weld or braze/ silver solder?

Yes. Around the rear lump (by the extractor plate) is a space what should be soldered or brazed solid. Compare it to the front lump. The rear lump has been replaced. Why is anyone's guess, but the work was done poorly--as was the blue job and the cheap stock. This rifle should not be sold. I called the auction company and they have not returned my message.
C

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:


$15000 Really?
Must be a typo from $1500.
C

If you like, Cal. It would seem we were typing at the same time and your post hit the thread first.

I bow to your wisdom, of course, and it amazes me any London rifle in reasonable condition would be offered that cheap - not that it might be any better than a Merkel, just that English makers have tickets on themselves.

Your knowledge of the particular rifle is crucial, too, but it would seem 'London's Oldest Gunmaker' has gone over a few dry gullies.

The wood to metal fit, looks like the stock and fore end is made by a chinese child during the night shift in Wuhan during the pandemic.

OOOOOOHHH sambarman:

Them's fightin words.

Comparing this old CH, which has seen better days to a Merkel.

I'll have what your having, only 10 milligrams.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

I WOULDN'T, and it's a 31/4" too...
Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
OOOOOOHHH sambarman:

Them's fightin words.

Comparing this old CH, which has seen better days to a Merkel.

I'll have what your having, only 10 milligrams.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

I beg your pardon, Carpediem, but I'm not sure which you think is worse - a worn-out CH or a Merkel (condition unstated).

This Double came out of a estate we purchased that had multiple doubles & big bores in it. This one has set in the safe and we are running it through the auction and it will sell to the highest bidder. I took plenty of pictures to show the gun Its obvious the bluing has been redone and the wood too.

Cal I got your message & I have nothing to say to you. I think you are wrong when it comes to this gun being unsafe to shoot. If I had ammo I would drop them in and shoot it without worry. This gun has obviously been used after the rebuild so someone has shot it. Rifling is great and bores are good.

That’s all I can say about it no it’s not a 15k double but I think it’s a 4k-4500 affordable double in a very classic caliber.

Cal;

I ascertain that you understand the UK Rules of Proof of English made small arms and further that more specifically that you understand that in Part 1 "General" section 5 (page 7 of 2006 Rules of Proof) of these Rules of Proof you can read the following last sentence of section 5 as related to barrels: "For the purpose of this rule any alteration to, or replacement of any highly stressed Action or Breech component part marked as Proved, shall render the Arm out of Proof or Unproved".

I also assume that you understand that the proof laws of the UK are not enforceable in the USA. And that further you know that the UK proof laws and rules were established to protect the life and limb of purchasers of small arms. And that further you know that in the UK as well as Europe anyone selling a Unproved small arms is subject to the force of law. And that you also know that even though the UK Proof Laws are not applicable and enforceable in the USA, a purchaser of a small arm of English make is prudent to avail himself of advice on whether such a small arm presented for sale is considered to be out of Proof by these rules of proof and that the subsequent firing of the small arm without Reproof by the UK Proof Houses could subject the shooter to loss of life and or limb.

Many consider your observations and advice in such matters valuable.

Transvaal:
Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge of British proof laws. My concern is only the safety in shooting the weapon, not anything to do with originality as the rifle has been re finsihed and restocked. I will reply to NTO below. Again, thanks for your kind words.

NTO:
The sum total of my posts about this rifle is not personal as I didn't know it was yours. I have no issues with the refinishing and restocking of the rifle--many are sold as such and many who wish to own a vintage English double find such as double as yours a way to obtain one due to the reduced money. However...

There is a safety issue with this rifle. You have not fired the rifle and can only speculate of its use in the past. I understand you bought an estate with the hope of reselling for a profit (in total, perhaps not this particular rifle). The replacement lump is an issue of safety not originality. I doubt the rifle will come apart upon the first shot. Maybe not after 10 or 20. From my knowledge of doubles it is not a question of "if" but "when".

While the nature of the replaced lump probably will not cause the rifle to come apart, it will render the rifle unusable and at additional cost to the buyer to repair it (properly).

From the quality of the stock and the refinish the work done on this rifle was quick and to do so at the lowest cost possible--it is not quality work (that's ok and it's evident by the price and a visual inspection). I feel it is safe to state the same ethic was done with the lump replacement--a quick job to save cost. And while the stock the metal finish will not be a safety issue, the lump will. Myself, and others who have commented to me via email and PM honestly believe you are setting yourself up for liability should the buyer have issues with this rifle in the future and it was not disclosed the potential problems. The auction company may also have responsibility as the issue has been rasied here.

I'm sorry you have nothing to say to me after my phome message. Again, it was not personal as I didn't know who was selling the rifle. I hope you will let the buyer know of this thread so he (or she) can make an informed decision.

Cheers to all involved and who commented.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Transvaal:
Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge of British proof laws. My concern is only the safety in shooting the weapon, not anything to do with originality as the rifle has been re finsihed and restocked. I will reply to NTO below. Again, thanks for your kind words.

NTO:
The sum total of my posts about this rifle is not personal as I didn't know it was yours. I have no issues with the refinishing and restocking of the rifle--many are sold as such and many who wish to own a vintage English double find such as double as yours a way to obtain one due to the reduced money. However...

There is a safety issue with this rifle. You have not fired the rifle and can only speculate of its use in the past. I understand you bought an estate with the hope of reselling for a profit (in total, perhaps not this particular rifle). The replacement lump is an issue of safety not originality. I doubt the rifle will come apart upon the first shot. Maybe not after 10 or 20. From my knowledge of doubles it is not a question of "if" but "when".

While the nature of the replaced lump probably will not cause the rifle to come apart, it will render the rifle unusable and at additional cost to the buyer to repair it (properly).

From the quality of the stock and the refinish the work done on this rifle was quick and to do so at the lowest cost possible--it is not quality work (that's ok and it's evident by the price and a visual inspection). I feel it is safe to state the same ethic was done with the lump replacement--a quick job to save cost. And while the stock the metal finish will not be a safety issue, the lump will. Myself, and others who have commented to me via email and PM honestly believe you are setting yourself up for liability should the buyer have issues with this rifle in the future and it was not disclosed the potential problems. The auction company may also have responsibility as the issue has been rasied here.
Cheers to all involved and who commented.
Cal

Great Post...classy guy

Update:
First of all, thank you, Alfredo for the kind words.

Secondly as of this posting the bidding on the rifle is up to $3200 with a bit over 12 hours remaining. It appears the auction company and the owner have ignored my phone call about the rifle and my suggestion to let potential buyers know the complete situation.

Thirdly, it has come to my attention (from a gentleman with far greater knowledge than I) that the two proof houses in England would not pass this rifle on the visual proof nor pass it with the repair as done. It is unacceptable to mill away the original lump and fit another into the slot.

Fourth. The double rifle world is a small one and this rifle may surface in the future with the new buyer. If any of you fine AR gents see this rifle in the future, please put me in contact with the new owner or PM me the information.

Cheers, gents. AR fellas are the best (except for maybe a few on the political forum LOL).
Cal

PS. One hour later and the bidding is now at $4000.

Cal,

No grudge held you gave me your opinion on the voicemail about the gun and that’s fine everyone is entitled to your own opinion that’s what makes all the forums work. And our opinion is different on this gun.

Guns are sold as is it’s the purchaser to decide about the firearms they purchase I take plenty of pictures for the new buyers to see what they are getting. We have only been in the gun auction business a few yrs and strive to keep our buyers happy and have had good luck with all we sell.

I also had this for sale here and other forums and I have a great track record selling and buying if I would have though in any way this rifle was unsafe it would have never went for sale. To be honest if it wasn’t such a hard to find cartridge I would have kept it but between that and hoping for another trip to Moz in Oct it needs to go.

I guess the old adage caveat emptoris still alive today!
I once told George Caswell of Champlin Firearms that I didn't think any one would ever get a "deal" on something he was selling. However, they most certainly would know all there is to know about the gun, it's history and condition. George smiled and said, "No other way to stay in this business!"
I've always admired George for that!

I watched the live auction. I guess over the weeks people bid on the internet and the high bid on the 'net for this rifle was $4000. At the live auction the bidding begins at the high internet bid. No one bid further so the hammer price was $4000. Add 20% for the house (I beleive the house is also the seller) so some poor bastard is out $4800, plus shipping, packing, etc.

The rifle was sold "as is." I always believed "as is" was to protect the seller for unforseen problems that come to light in the future. I never thought "as is" meant not to disclose a known problem. The auction website states:

8. All sales are final. All items are sold "AS, IS". When the auctioneer declares an item it becomes the property of the buyer and at that time the buyer assumes full responsibility of the merchandise. Items must be paid in full before possession is granted to the buyer.

I have a few emails and PMs on this issue. From one disgusted gent, "Shame on him, no different than a Nigerian email scammer or used car salesman."

It will be interesting if this rifle comes to light in the future and the major flaw is pointed out then. Usually they do as the double rifle community is quite small. Several years after I published my book on the .600 caliber a fella called me that one of the rifles in my book was stolen from him a dozen years prior. What comes around, comes around. Of couse I notified the proper authorities and the insurance company that paid on the claim.

In closing, what say you gentlemen, on the definition of "as is."

Cheers,
Cal

You can read through the catalog if any problem is know it is pointed out.

Now that double there is no problem. It’s only you Cal saying someone who knows says it’s not right. This is not a flaw just someone assuming it’s not right because it’s not the way they would fix it.

And every auction house sells “As Is” this is no new concept or snake oil salesman tactics.

NTO,
please tell us about the rifle. What work has been done on the original rifle?

What I know is it came out of a old mans estate I purchased it on the same auction site it sold on a few yrs ago. Was built in Sept 6th 1911 and C&H will give you all the info if you pay I just never did.
Wood, Bluing, & Case Color has been redone at some point I do not know when or by who. There are no Cracks, Pits, Rust, or any know flaws with the gun locks up tight and I bet makes the new owner a nice piece.

I have nothing else to say about this subject. I can lay my head down at night with a clear mind knowing we sell guns with the best intent to both buyer & seller.

I’m with Cal on this one, just a sketchy way to fix an issue...for which I couldn’t come close to guessing why it was done. I’m curious if the new lump is dovetailed, or brazed/soldered in. Either way, if the gun was to end up in my shop it wouldn’t get worked on.

This is why I always call Aaron or JJ with questions as they have the correct answers and have saved me from getting in over my head. Same with buying from Holts, Diggory Hadoke is kind enough to examine. Both Aaron and JJ have done tremendous work for me and, when you have a question, ask.

Agreed, Dutch. The fine folks on this forum saved me from making a mistake. I much appreciate it- I have paid plenty of "stupid tax" in my time, trying to reduce every day!

Mark

When buying at auction, especially online, there's no substitute for an honest auctioneer who wants you as a customer tomorrow too.

My old (+- 1880) .45/70 double isn't in the same league with most of the rifles discussed here but the folks at Dan Morphy Auctions went out of their way to find out all they could for me and I'm confident they didn't know of any potential issue with it without disclosing it.

Which is what any good auctioneer will do.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Fellas:
A gentleman with far more knowledge of doubles than I just emailed me an observation that must be shared with you. I have seen this photo of the barrel flats/lumps prior and this totally escaped me.

Note the rear lump. It is not original and is a replacement. Notice the space where it fits into the recess. This rifle is absolutely NOT safe to shoot with nitro pressures.

I kept the photo to a large format to easily see the issue.
Cal

Is the barrels shoe lumped? Not chopper lump for sure. I just can't figure out why the rifle has been 'repaired' the way it is.

Here in Texas we'd refer to that kind of work as "Fucked up"!

Its a cluster for sure..From the looks of the water table Im betting the barrels are rough, the blue is akin to Licorice,and the stock is a replacement and out of specs for a Cogswell, even the wrong color for a Cogswell..the checkering is befitting a Mossberg shotgun, and the recoil pad installation tip is out of angle with the bottom stock line...make better firewood and horseshoes..

Other than that it a pretty indecent rifle..

I honestly think the above $1500 price suggestin would be a good offer, were it mine, which it never would or will be, I'd jump on that offer.