Guys, I really need some help here! I am NOT an experienced Double Rifle guy, and I also am one of the unfortunate fools that sent money to Peter Als Nerving, for a .500NE that will never arrive.

So, I have now decided I am interested in getting a Verney-Carron double, but I cannot decide whether I want, need or should get a .500 or a .577? I am going to list below some questions/comments/intentions I have for the gun, and I am really looking for some advice from the much more experienced DR members.

1. Starting in 2012 I will be guiding 2-3, 10 to 21 day DG hunts in Tanzania. So I plan for the gun to be a legit back-up gun if necessary.

2. I also hunt DG every year, so I want this to be a personal hunting rifle as well.

3. How important is it to get "fitted" for the gun, and order a custom gun made for me, vs buying one that is already made?

4. If "fitting" one is necessary, can I do that here in Colorado, or do I need to get with Ken at V-C to do that?

5. I am NOT a reloader, and have no interest in reloading, what role could available ammo play in my decision? Currently I have all of my ammo custom loaded by Safari Arms Ltd - New York. Is this question even a consideration?

6. I am not especially sensitive to recoil, but of course when considering that I could potentially be using the gun in a moment of crisis, does one caliber make more sense over the other?

Likely I am leaving out some potential considerations/questions, so please feel free to add any comments or concerns that are not mentioned.

Thanks guys for your help, and I look forward to your input.

Aaron,

PM me and I will give you my phone number and give you my 2 cents for what it is worth,

465H&H

I actually think your question is a very easy one to answer, go with the .500 NE. The .500 will be a great stopper, it will weigh a good 2-3 pounds less than the .577 which will be important lugging the rifle around in the bush, and you can have it regulated with Hornady ammo which is readily available and relatively cheap since you do not reload. The .500 will be perfectly fine for any dangerous game, including elephant. The only reason to own a .577 is that you already own a .500 and want something different to play with.

On the fitted versus stock double rifles, I have only ever owned stock double rifles. I have never had one custom made. I think if you get one that fits you from a LOP perspective, I am not sure that the 8-12 month wait for a fitted rifle is really worth it. Particularly in your case since you are expecting to start guiding next year I would think that you would want to get something and start practicing with it and getting to know it sooner rather than later. Lots of English double shooters out there that are very happy and none of them (other than someone very old or someone with lots of dough for a new HH, WR or Purdy) had their rifles built to spec.

I would be inclined to go for slightly longer barrels, say 25 or 26 inch. I think they tend to balance better and get the muzzle blast a little further from your face.

My $0.02.

Aaron, I own both but would purchase the .500 nitro as my "only double". Have it regulated with factory Hornady ammo. Definately order it made to your dimensions. Ken can advise where you might go for that or you can have Jerome measure you at DCS or SCI. May I also suggest that you put a deposit down to lock in a price before January. After the first of the year it goes up. Good luck in whatever you decide.

I probably don't have as much experience as others but I have a stock Merkel and a Searcy that was fitted to me based on measurements I sent to Butch. The Searcy fit me perfectly when I got it. I live in NC and Butch is in California. The only thing I did to the Merkel is change the recoil pad and a spacer to adjust for LOP. I have had several Merkels including a 500NE and they just fit me. I had the Searcy regulated with Hornady factory ammo and a handload since I load all of my own. I can buy Hornady ammo when on sale and load it back with my handloads and both shoot to same point of impact. The barrels on the Merkel are 23.6" and the Searcy is 26" and both weigh about the same. I agree with Mjines on going with the 500NE and being able to buy Hornady factory ammo at very reasonable prices.

I would choose the 500 NE as well. I'd like to have a 577 also, but honestly, the 500 will do what ever you need it to. It gets heavy enough as it is. An extra 3 lbs or so may not sound like much, but you know what it feels like after a tough day in the field. You've been there, done that more than I.

My rifle is a stock Merkel. It actually fits me fine except that we added a spacer under the pad to lengthen the LOP. If I close my eyes and throw the gun up to my shoulder, the sights are dead on when I open my eyes. Not all of the stock rifles I looked at did this however. So I would say that a "Bespoke" rifle isn't necessary, but don't just buy any rifle off the shelf. Try several out to see which one fits the best.

Another vote for the .500 Nitro regulated with Hornady ammo. If you're going to carry it yourself, every day, you will be glad in the long run that you chose it over the .577.

I've had both, and I'd take the 500 for a using gun everytime. The 577 is heavy, and if it is built shootable-- 13.5-15 lbs then its too heavy to pack around, I had my 577 when I was 26-28 years old, and it tuckered me out packing it around at it was on the light end of 13 lb 8oz. When you touched off a full tilt 750 grain load there was alot of recoil--a big shove yes. Did it hurt--no-- but it was a hell of a shove. Some of the 650 loads at 1950fps were nice in the gun but did not shoot to the sights like the 750's did.

I did hold a Marcel Thys at one time a few years ago that was 11-11.5 lbs. It felt super but I bet it stomped the shit out of ya! I had a friend that had a Westely Richards that had 25 or 26 in barrels it balanced great and the weight was around 14.5 lbs. It was a sweet shooter, but I'd hate to carry that around for 10-21 days.

The trouble with the 577 is you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Its got awesome power, but it needs to weigh at LEAST 12lbs, and its usually about 30% more in cost. Mine was a great toy and an even better learning experence.

If I wanted a PH"ing" gun, I'd get a 500 at 10.5lbs no doubt. If I wanted something different, I'd get them to do me a 500/465.

I tell this story often. My father is an ol cowboy, and he shot the 577. He handled the recoil like a champ, but he broke it open and handed it back to me and said "Son nothing needs that much killing!!!!" As I get older I have to agree with him!

Ed

If you ask all your PH mates if their own rifles weight is a big factor in what they like, then you will have a good idea what is practical. In particular if you will be guiding.
With fitting, I just had my local GS to measure me up for Ken.

Aaron,

I have both 500 and 577. The 500 is the way to go if you are going to carry it everyday and if you don't reload. Good factory ammo available from several different makers. The 577 is a great cartridge and really hammers game but the weight is an issue. I'd have a 500 built to fit you and get it made as light as they will make it. Leave those recoil reducers out of the butt.

Sam

Aaron,

As I mentioned last night before either posted, I take Sam's and Don's advice without question. Two extremely experienced, intelligent and open-minded men. Both have been 100% on the money in every private correspondence we have had over the years.

I agree with the others but for me, only because you don't reload. Finding 500NE ammo is far more likely than finding (and affording) 577NE stuff.

Gentlemen - WOW, I really appreciate all the advice, info and help you guys have offered.

The many different considerations have my mind spinning at the moment. Ken has also been very helpful, spending 45 minutes on the phone with me yesterday.

Thanks again!

But on the other hand I don't know any PH carrying anything bigger than a 470 and most 416's.

Come on Bill, that is rubbish. A number carry larger guns. Hell, just from the PHs that hunt with Buzz, Rex Hoets carried a .500 Jeffery until he went into mining, either Richie or Rich carries a .500 A-Square. I believe Ivan Carter carries a .500 (and also owns a .577 or .600 as I recall). Buzz would be carrying a .500 if he could figure out a way to get the damn double he bought into Zim. Sullivan carries a .600, although now I am sure I will invite the Sullivan bashers to comment that he is not a real PH. I am confident there are many others.

Plenty with 470s though.

No flies on the 470 and ammo is easier to find than the other calibers. It has always been the most popular caliber for doubles. I've killed most of my stuff in Africa with a 470 including plains game. I doubt I will hunt with it again after shooting the bigger guns. I'd still put in a vote for the 500 just because it has a little more bullet weight and diameter.
One of the PH's I hunted with carries an older 577 double and makes it look like a toy in his hands. It sure is nice having a big bore backing you up instead of some dinky 375.

Sam

come on Mike!

Rex told me he got rid of the Jeffery because he couldn't stand the recoil ... But his story may have changed over the years. I will pass commenting on him & his Gibbs.

All I ever heard out of Ivan was that his 450 was plenty of gun & the 375 was plenty for clients. Now that he .... He needs a 600. I'll pass on that story too.

Didn't Sullivan sell his 600? Or he was trying to at one time.

A J van Heerdon probably shot as many elephants as most and he used a 577 some of the time but I don't remember his usual.

More counterpoints. Harlan used a 458 by default, though he commented in his book about the 470 being a better killer, which sort of flies in the face of the "shot placement is everything" crowd.

If someone wants a 500 or a 577 or 600 more power to them. Undoubtedly the 500 is much more than a 470. I'm all in favor of using enough gun. I'm not convinced any more than the 416's & the 470 are needed.

Rubbish? I think not.

Your comment was "I don't know any PH carrying anything bigger than a 470 . . ." That evoked the rubbish remark.

If I must be held to account for every word that I type, rattling cages will be no fun at all.

one might occasionally remember that a PH's weapon was likely gifted and not the reslt of any detailed analysis.

Though a hero to me, Denis Lyell and many of his ilk used little guns like the 8 mm Mauser and subsequently lost many elephants wounded.

I don't know that a 500 or a 577 is needed but they are unquestionably better than the 8 mm Mauser.

To get back to Aaron's original question, I like the 500 a lot and it is said to have a noticeably greater impact on Ele than a 470, without a corresponding increase in recoil. When I bought a DR it was a 500 NE, because after doing the research, that is what met my needs.

As to fitting, I was measured at the V/C booth at SCI last year by a very knowledgeable Frenchman. Ask Ken but I'll bet the guy will be at both DSC and SCI for measurements this year.

Good luck with whatever you decide upon.

I used to own a .470 before I got ripped off by Peter Nerving and had to sell it. He was reportedly making me a .500 which was the calibre I had been recommended by other well know PH's. I was very pleased with the .470

The double I would use when following up DG or in pursuit of Buffalo. I did not consider it a good all round carry gun and stuck to my bolt actions.

The other alternative is to employ a gun carrier and have two guns in the field.

Fairgame, check your PM's

what is the web sight for v-c?

quote:

Originally posted by domit:
what is the web sight for v-c?

I believe it is
Verney-Carron website - click here

and the English version is

US version of their website - click here

Hmmmmm,I regretfully agree with most of the above on the .500,esp on the longer treks across the savanna's....That being said,get both! (just kidding)...Me,I like/love the .577 and what it can/will do! I did have a few .500 doubles and they definelty seemed to knock down capes faster than my 458s,though they did well too...The .500 is kinda your cake and eat it too-plenty horsepower without being to heavy,say arond 10 1/2pds is all you need it to be...when your ready to move up,then you can go to the next much higher level,the .577 Killer!

thanks for information.

You know my vote was .500 NE

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
You know my vote was .500 NE

That'll be my next one! I figure going down, will be easier than going up

Made to fit. Practicing at 30ft both eyes open. Properly fitted you should be able to hit by pointing very close to the bull every shot. Getting the feel for the rifle and smooth loading will come with shooting.

I love this stuff.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Made to fit. Practicing at 30ft both eyes open. Properly fitted you should be able to hit by pointing very close to the bull every shot. Getting the feel for the rifle and smooth loading will come with shooting.

I love this stuff.

Mike

Mike - I plan to take it out this coming Friday, and give it a go. I have shot double rifles a couple of times, but just a couple. However, I've hunted alot with my side by side 10ga shotgun with double triggers, so I am fairly comfortable with double triggers. I've always shot with both eyes open, as you're suppose to. Now it will be trying to get comfortable with the new rifle.

I owe a big thank you to Sam Rose who was kind enough to help me out with some ammo, as finding any for the .577 was very difficult.