After months of trying every combination I could find and always getting similar results I had a brainstorm. I put a laser bore sighter in each barrel to see what I got. I realize they are not precision instruments but they do confirm what I have experienced. The two images are from swapping the lasers back and forth. The barrels cross between the muzzle and 50 yards as they should. The left barrel is high and has been on every load I have tried. Any thoughts?

Here are the photos including one of a target shot at 100 yards.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/a...¤t=target1.jpg



http://s1129.photobucket.com/a...w¤t=laser1.jpg

http://s1129.photobucket.com/a...w¤t=laser2.jpg

Your barrels are pointing in opposite quadrants from your bullets. What is the make? The standard for regulation for most commercially built DRs today is 2 inches at 50-80 yards. What is the 100 yard spread on yours? You might be within the "as built" spec and if so, the only thing you do is go hunting with it.

Several loads will stay within less than 2 inches horizontally at 100 yards and as you can see each barrel groups well. As I move the charge up to bring the barrels together horizontally the vertical spread increases. The target pictured shows about a 2" vertical spread and that is about the best I have ever done. Most run from 3 to 4 inches vertically. The rifle is a Chapuis 9.3x74.

I have this problem before. Horizontal spread can be regulated with load. I have never been able to fix vertical spread if the barrels are not coplanar to start with. Probably needs to be reregulated

BB

What is the velocity of your best grouping load at 100 yards and what bullet are you using?

The best groups at 100 have been in the range of 2 inches horizontal spread by 2 1/2 vertical spread. When I increase the charge to bring the poi of the barrels closer together the vertical spread increases. The rifle was supposedly regulated with RWS 247 gr. Cone Points. They are not available in the US so I have no way of getting a starting velocity to match. What I have tried to do is use loads that show they are app. the same velocity as the stated velocity on the RWS website.

I have used Nosler, Barnes and Woodleigh 250gr. bullets, RWS 247 gr bullets, Speer 270 gr. bullets and 286 gr bullets from Barnes, Hornady, Norma and Woodleigh as well as factory loads from Hornady, Norma and Federal.

A couple of times I have put 4 bullets (2 per barrel) in a 2 by 3 inch box. If I could find a load that would always do that I would probably be satisfied but those seemed to be flukes and when I repeat the exact load again I'm back to 3 to 4 inch vertical spread.

BayouBob said "the barrels cross between the muzzle ends and 50 yards as they should."
If you mean, by that, that when shooting it, the bullets cross at 50 yards, that should not happen. In a properly regulated double rifle, bullets should never cross; they should shoot parallel to infinity, within reason, for caliber.

BayouBos said "several loads will stay within less than 2 inches horiz. at 100 yards."

What more do you want, that is excellent regulation for a double rifle. Don't try, in vain, to increase charge to get point of impact closer together. All you will do is potentially increase velocity and breech pressure; decreasing integrity of rifle over time, and you will get poi spread that you are seeing. You are shooting a double rifle; not a tack driving single shot, so 2" at 100 yards is more than can be expected.

I can only agree with Doubleriflejack: What else do you expect from a double?
Just try and make a quick "right and left" with your double at fifty yards. Is your accuracy better or worse than your double?
You have a nice shooting double. I think Holland does not guarantee nothing better than 3" at 100 yards! Go hunting and enjoy it!

BB

A few more random thoughts.
If you are not going to take the rifle to Africa then any to the 250gr bullets and the 270 Speer, are plenty good enough, IMHO, for anything in North America.

However, IF, you plan on taking the rifle to Africa I would concentrate on the following 3 bullets.

Again this is baised on all the game I have killed with my 9,3x74R Chapuis, using several different bullets. In fact these 3 bullets have been used by me to shoot small game and the great beasts of Africa.

The 3 best bullets [IMHO] are the 286gr Nosler Partition, 286gr Woodleigh Soft, and the 286gr Woodleigh Solid.

I use 65 gr of IMR 4831, for all 3 bullets and out to 200 yards they all hit close enough together to use them interchangeably.

IMHO as long as you can cover you group at 100 yards by your hand you are good to go.

Are you shooting with a scope or iron sights?

Where the barrel looks at rest is not where it will be looking when the bullet exits the muzzle! The laser only tells you where it looks at rest, nothing more. If a properly regulating load is fired from a properly rested double rifle, lines of sight through the bores cross, the bullets do not!
Additionally the lasers will only print properly if you make absolutely sure the rifle is level horizontally across the barrels.

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Okay, I'll start over. First, the best I have ever gotten is just over 2 inches vertical spread at 100 meters. That has happened 2 or 3 times and when I shot the same loads again the spread went back to 3 to 4 inches vertically or more. If I can't repeat something then I mark it up as a fluke. Most everything I have tried starts out with about a 2 inch vertical spread at 50 meters and expands from there. It doesn't matter if I use the iron sights or a scope.

I shoot from a sitting rest. The back of my left hand is resting on the bag and holding the forend. The butt is supported only by my shoulder. I shoot 2 pairs, right left, right left, then let the barrels cool before the next shot. I keep the bores clean.

The rifle was regulated with RWS 247 grain Cone Points which are not available in the US. I have never even found 2 to shoot over a chrongraph to get a starting point. The test target shows 2 holes about an inch apart with the left one just slightly higher than the right. As has been pointed out in the Sabatti discusions, 2 holes proves nothing.

I have been at this for 10 months, taking some time out to fix the mechanical issues of the rifle. I have tried just about every loaded round that is commonly available here with the exception of the Nosler ammo. I have tried more than 75 combinations of bullets, powder, primers and brass. No matter what, the left barrel shoots high. I finally smuggled in some RWS 247 grain Cone Point bullets and tried several loads with them, same thing, left barrel high.

Just for the sake of seeing it I put the two lasers in the barrels. The rifle was snugged into sand bags and absolutely level. The dots from the laser show that the line of sight of the barrels converge at about 20 yards which they should in order to shoot apart with recoil. What was interesting was that the dot from the laser in the left barrel was about 3 inches high at 50 yards. I swapped the lasers back and forth in the barrels multiple times and the picture was always the same. That tells me that the barrels aren't aligned vertically.

I have a little over 600 rounds through the rifle. 99% of the groups have had the left barrel 2 to 3 inches high at 50 meters and 3 to 5 inches high at 100 meters. What that gives me is a single shot rifle. If you use the standard of assuming your field groups will be double the size of your bench groups that means figure that my second shot might be 8 inches off from my first one at 100 and who knows beyond that.

Is that the kind of accuracy I should expect from a rifle that I might want to use out to 200 yards?

The reason for all the long winded explanation is to ask; does anyone know of a way to get both barrels to shoot on the same plane without re-regulating the rifle? In his book Mr. Wright didn't have any suggestions.

I can only think of one more thing to check and that is the left barrels muzzle. If there is a ding in the crown it could be causing the high shots from that barrel. If that isn't the case then a trip to Enid, OK and J.J. is in order.

465H&H

Was your rifle regulated for 50 or 100 yards? Chapuis will do either; usually 50 yards with irons and 100 with a scope but you must specify that. So, if you are getting 2 inch groups at 50 yards and that is the specification to which the rifle was built, then you are getting what you paid for. They do not specify what the rifles will shoot like after the regulation distance. I know, everyone says that DRs should shoot parallel bullets to infinity, but in the real world of "semi custom" or even "mass produced" DRs, that is often/usually not the case. Of course, many will, but just as many won't. They shoot into whatever spec to which they are built; nothing more is guaranteed.

Thanks 465; that was one thing I hadn't thought of. Muzzle crown is perfect.

Hi Bob

I have two boxes of RWS 247 Cone point bullets, you can have them for a fiar price, I am in Canda but shipping should not be a problem. I use 286 Woodleigh in my 9.3 Merkel as she was regulated with 286 Norma Alaska. If intrested please e-mail me at: John@wolverinesupplies.com

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I can only think of one more thing to check and that is the left barrels muzzle. If there is a ding in the crown it could be causing the high shots from that barrel. If that isn't the case then a trip to Enid, OK and J.J. is in order.

465H&H

With the latest information given by BayouBob, The sugestion above would be my advice, as he seems to have exausted all the options so far! It seems he has a physical regulation problem rather than a load problem.

One sugestion I'd like to make is, if JJ regulates the rifle, I'd have him regulate it with 286 gr bullets at around 2350 fps! I have two double rifles chambered for 9.3X74R and I shoot nothing but 286 gr bullets , both soft and solids and see absolutely no use foir any other weight.

May I ask what brand, and model rifle are we discussing here?

Thanks Mac. I didn't ask what the regulating load was before I bought the rifle. (New but sight unseen.) If I have it re-regulated I will definitely have it done with 286 gr. bullets. From what you and several others have said I feel like wtih those bullets I should be able to hit just about anything these old eyes can see if the rifle is doing its part.

I am getting the feeling all you are going to end up with is frustration because you are trying to find an accurate load with a bullet that is heavier and a different brand than what the rifle was actually regulated for.

You would most likely be light years ahead if you just bit the bullet and had it regulated for a good 286 grain bullet and be done with it. This would take care of trying to find ammo and get rid of the vertical spread as well. Yes it is expensive but in the end it will be money well spent.

Snow, I got some of the bullets it was supposedly regulated for (not the loaded ammo.) Still get the vertical spread.

Then it's time the rifle makes a trip to JJ's and then it's happy shooting from then on out.
Just my two cents worth but thats what I would do.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Then it's time the rifle makes a trip to JJ's and then it's happy shooting from then on out.
Just my two cents worth but thats what I would do.

There is one hitch involved with JJ! you need to call him first because there are certain brands he will not re-regulate! I happen to have one that needs re-regulation but JJ will not do it. Each of the barrels will shoot four shot groups under 1 inch at fifty yards but the top barrel shoots 3 inches high and 2 inches to the right, while the bottom barrel shoots 3 inches nlow and 2 inches to the left! He will not attempt re-regu8lation because the wedges are brazed in instead of being soft soldered.

I can re-regulete the rifle but I no longer have access to a machine shop since I retired, or speciality tools needed for the job. So I guess the rifle will just hang in my vault unused! Too bad because it is a very nice rifle!