Is there a way to tell if a double (or any other rifle) will smack you in the face or cheek just by shouldering it? If you shoulder the rifle and the sights align, should you be alright?

In the past I purchased an older merkel 9.3 o/u that felt great on the floor of the Tulsa show. By the third pairs of double my cheekbone was bruised. Nothing like the disappointment of dropping cash on a rifle and have it kick your butt.

Im now eyeing a new merkel 470 and I hope not to go through this again. Hate to spend $8k, shoot a few to find out it really didnt fit me.

I shot a newish merkel 9.3 and it seemed to fit me fine. I am assuming the 470 would be somewhat similar (fit).

Are the new merkels better stocked compared to the 60's and 70's?

Thanks!

The straight stocked Merkel's are far better than the Hog back style Merkel's.

When your cheek and the comb move as one, there can be no bruising.

It is only when the comb can move independently of the cheek and vice versa that there can be bruising.

So a tight cheek weld cures bruising. You get a tighter cheek weld with a bit higher comb, but too much height and you fight to properly see your open sights. So the proper height is important.

A thicker comb promotes bruising. Contrary to conventional wisdom, a thinner comb helps alieviate cheek slap and bruising.

JPK

Plenty of products are available to adjust the comb height
on a gun.

They come in padded versions (generally lace up)
of glue or strap on one's with 2 heights so you
can adjust to suit you.

I'll use a lace on or velcro on comb for a gun stocked for open sights but used on occasion with a scope.

But other than that, the best cure for a too low stock is either a different gun or a new stock.

Remember too, that a too high stock can be made lower with just some wood removal.

JPK

It's a combination of both fit and design. Correct drop and cast are crucial, as is comb design. "Off the rack" frequently doesn't cut it. Little drop and cast plus a thick comb to me is the worst combination. You need adequate drop and cast to align the eye correctly with a fast, natural mount, plus a comb that tapers from a wide butt to a thin nose.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I strongly disagree with JPK. "Welding" your cheek to the comb and then expecting your cheek to recoil with the rifle is physically not possible!!! Most DGR's have a recoil velocity of 19 (or more)feet per second. Think about how fast that really is. Also, if you read another thread in this section you will see that most experienced double rifle shooters do not put their cheeks down hard on the comb.
It has been my experience that taking recoil in the cheek is caused by not having enough drop.
This "straight stock" concept of lessening recoil is also BS. When your stock has the same amount of drop at the heel as at the comb then when you shoulder that rifle in the standing position you will find that only the lower half of the buttplate is on your shoulder. This is OK for your deer rifle or M16 but when you fire a .470 this acts as a pivot point and adds to muzzle rise/recoil to the cheek. It also concentrates the recoil to a smaller area of the shoulder causing more felt recoil at the shoulder.

The reason peole get hit in the head by the scoe on a hard kicking scope rifle can be caused by a scope mounted too far back.

AND/OR if the scope is mounted properly by allowing your head to have light contact, basically having your head "floating" on the comb of the stock.

When the gun recoils back, your "big ol head" moves foward and you bang the scope.

If your shoulder collaspes it just adds to the problem...

By having a HARD cheek weld your head is "fixed to the stock". Your shoulder should not collaspe [this also causes your hand, and thus your trigger finger to move rewarward and slap the back trigger on a double causeing a double discharge...] your head, shoulder, and thus your upper body and the rifle recoil as a single unit.

You take the recoil at the waist...

Your face does not get smacked..., you do not get hit in the head with a scope..., and you do not get a double discharge with a double rifle...

Everybody should know this...

Now a badly made stock, that does not fit, might still smack you...

But with proper technique a lot of "problems" never happen.

Tommyhawk:

I actually agree with both of you. JPK is certainly right that as long as the cheek and comb always move together, there will be no face slap. His comments about comb shape and fit are also spot on.

As recoil becomes heavy though, the gun will do some moving independent of the shooter, and that's where comb shape and fit come into play. Recoil transmitted to the face is the worst kind, as the effects of it accumulate fastest there. I've shot .577s that were no problem at all, and .500s that were too brutal to be of any use to me.

It won't hit you in the face if it can't. Certainly too much drop will produce excessive muzzle rise and exacerbate recoil transmission to the face. At the same time, not enough is just as bad. If you're having to screw your face down hard on the comb to align the sights, you'll get smacked, and the butt will be too high on the shoulder. A thick, fluted comb and inadequate cast just add to the punishment.

With correct drop, LOP, cast-on/off, and a comb with a straight taper from butt to nose, the rifle mounts fast and points dead-on without having to "hunt" for it, and the butt is positioned properly on the shoulder. Under recoil, the correct cast and tapered comb permit the stock to slide slightly away from the shooter's face, obviating head slap during muzzle rise. The difference in "felt" recoil is substantial.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Tommyhawk,

If a rifle has the same drop at comb and heel both will be too high and you will have a tough time using our open sights. Or both are too low and the rifle will be difficult to shoot well because consistent mount is impossible and it will also beat you. A firm, consistent cheek weld is critical to both quick, accurate double rifle shooting and to shotgun shooting, and they are closely related, as are the appropriate dimension for stocks.

Note that in my first post, I was discussing the need for a high enough comb. No mention of a high heel. Likewise a thin comb, and not a thin butt.

On the cheek weld, think about this, the rifle recoils up and back, if your cheek is welded to the comb it will rise with the stock. If it is not, because of extra drop, the stock will have a running start and whack the hell out of the cheek.

Regarding cast, the mechanics would acentuate recoil but for one critical point. Think about it, with a stock bent for a righty, shot by a righty, the right barrel would reduce recoil into the face because torque will have it recoil away from the cheek, but the bent stock negates the reduction because the bent stock will cause torque in the opposite direction, into the face. The left barrel along with the bent stock is going to push the stock into the face, accentuating recoil. The key thing about proper cast though, and why it reduces felt recoil, is that it allows a proper, higher comb height because it obviates the nessecity of reaching the cheek over the comb to align the eye with the sights. Moreover, it allows the thin and high comb which doesn't come up to beat the cheek.

JPK

400 Nitro says it better and more completely than JPK or I. Comb shape and proper stock fit are the keys to not getting slapped in the face. It is the idea of this "cheek weld" that I can't get past. An 11 lb. .470 recoils at 23 f.p.s. That equates to 54.87 m.p.h. Do you
think that your head stays "welded" to the stock when it recoils at that speed? That's 0 to 54mph in less than a second. The reason that people get hit by the scope is because the rifle recoils to the rear and your head stays where it was when the cartridge went off! We make stocks longer and move scopes forward so that the recoil has ended before the scope collides with your head. In a gun that is too short, the thumb of your grip hand will strike you in the nose under recoil because your head stays in the same position and the gun recoils to the rear. Please point out to me where I'm going wrong.
As to the original question, I feel for the pressure that I have put my cheek down onto the comb so that I can see the sights. If I have to push my cheek bone onto the comb. I am going to have a sore cheek. I want to be able to see the sights with no pressure between the comb and my cheek.

i own a brno 375H&H with those european hog back comb. 375 is not a kicker and i feel not much in the shoulder , but a lot in the face and head and result after shootinga a box or two in same day i have headache for couple of days i am looking to find a nice classic english stock for this gun. i don't know why they made a stock like that ? what is a hog back comb good for
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
400 Nitro says it better and more completely than JPK or I. Comb shape and proper stock fit are the keys to not getting slapped in the face. It is the idea of this "cheek weld" that I can't get past. An 11 lb. .470 recoils at 23 f.p.s. That equates to 54.87 m.p.h. Do you
think that your head stays "welded" to the stock when it recoils at that speed? That's 0 to 54mph in less than a second. The reason that people get hit by the scope is because the rifle recoils to the rear and your head stays where it was when the cartridge went off! We make stocks longer and move scopes forward so that the recoil has ended before the scope collides with your head. In a gun that is too short, the thumb of your grip hand will strike you in the nose under recoil because your head stays in the same position and the gun recoils to the rear. Please point out to me where I'm going wrong.
As to the original question, I feel for the pressure that I have put my cheek down onto the comb so that I can see the sights. If I have to push my cheek bone onto the comb. I am going to have a sore cheek. I want to be able to see the sights with no pressure between the comb and my cheek.

You need some pressure between your cheek and the comb or you cannot have consistent gun mount, which is THE KEY to accurate fast shooting. Having to screw down your face to see the sights isn't achieving a proper weld or mount, it just means the stock is too high.

And yes, if you properly mount and grip your rifle, through 470NE your cheek will remain on the stock. You can see it in any number of videos of large vore rifles being shot at game. I see it in my own dvd's.

But, the same fellow who keeps his head in the stock when shooting, say, and elephant, can, if he doesn't keep focus, become loosey-goosey with his hold when shooting paper. I know this because I do it when I loose focus when I get bored or inatentive to the details when punching paper.

JPK

NE 450 #2 wrote:
"The reason people get hit in the head by the scope on a hard kicking scope rifle can be caused by a scope mounted too far back."

I might be mistaken but I think we can all agree that this is true? Let's think about how this can happen.
I've got the answer! These must be those new mounts that allow the scope to float back and forth in the rings. After all, my cheek was "welded" to the comb. So I know that the distance between that scope and my head will never change if that scope was mounted solid on to the rifle.
Or, did I get my directions mixed up and move my head forward at 54 mph instead of moving it to the rear?
Or, maybe I didn't weld my cheek to the stock hard enough. Is J-B Weld good enough or do I need something stronger?

I guess it never occurred to you that most cases of scope eye and lots of cases of cheek bruising, second finger bruising, shoulder bruising, etc, are caused by an improper mount or a too loose hold, eh?

Nothing like letting the rifle get a running start to make shooting hurt.

JPK

I have found that with a stiff recoiling rifle-a firm hand on the grip and fore end as well as firm contact against the shoulder does seem to attenuate recoil well. Placing the cheek firmly but not hard-pressed against the comb helps avoid the slap you mention. As already mentioned, take the recoil from teh waist, not by fighting it with your arms or shoulder. Staying fit (in good muscle tone) helps as well.

My son, 6'2" and 220 lbs of 24 yr old tri-athlete refuses to shoot my 9 lb 416 Ruger #1 anymore, while I shoot it regulary up to 20-25 rounds in a one hour or so long session. He fights it- I let it ride. Maybe I am just more nerve dead than he...

Over the last 6 months I fired 2 .577's, a .500 Jeff, a .475, a .416 Rigby and a .375. All with NO difficulties with one exception. The .416's comb was too high which required me to "weld my cheek hard" to the comb to see the sights. After 2 shots I wanted nothing to do with that rifle as it was smacking me in the cheek. This is just one example. I've read on this thread that if you don't put your cheek down firmly on the comb then you allow the comb to get a running start and hit you in the cheek. Yet, every time I do this I get smacked in the cheek.
I find this an interesting topic because there are so many things involved. Gun weight,stock dimensions, stock shape, shooting techniques, and how they all interact under recoil.
I'd like to know exactly what is meant by "cheek weld" and how one can achieve it.

The term "cheek weld" applies to various types of firearms and refers to the spot upon your check/face contacts the comb of the stock itself. Common term among long range/prone/sling match shooters using micrometer sights for if your face/cheek/eye alignment is not the same each time, or in the same "spot" on the comb, your sight picture will be different for each shot and create different POI for the shots. Example would be that as the range increases, you are elevating your micrometer/peep rear sight and in order to keep the same "cheek weld" or eye alignment, you will see adjustable combs being able to go upward to attain that required eye alignment with the sight elevated.
In a sporting rifle using "irons" and bringing the rifle to the shoulder and seeing the sight line up as you do and each time you have your cheek/eye lined up differently, left right, up or down you will have variance where the shot would go. Some match shooters will take a small piece of tape, soft velcro tab, etc. and place on the comb which they can detect in order to have repeatablility in their "cheek weld." As to recoil and hard or soft "cheek weld" I will leave that to others who shoot the big DR boomers. I shoot 375's and 458Lott, both Rugers w/ iron sights and I use a somewhat firm weld spot, but to aid in controlling recoil I have found a very firm grip on the forearm helps control recoil for me.
If you really want to experience the face slap, sharp recoil, try shooting one of those Mossberg or Remington Police 12gauge shotguns and don't hold firmly on the forearm, pushing foreward and a firm grip on the stock. On second thought, don't do it, it is not pleasant after a full afternoon of shooting the damn things. Much rather shoot the Lott.

Thanks for the definition. As I see it the point of contention here is that some think that their cheek stays in the same position on the comb under recoil of a .470 or something of comparable recoil. I totally disagree.
Try this simple experiment. Mount your rifle like you were going to shoot it. Have a friend mark where the front of your cheek is on the comb. Take the rifle down and put a piece of tape on the comb starting in front of where your cheek was. Put some lipstick on the tape. Load and fire your .470 as you normally do. Check your face for lipstick. Check the tape to see how far forward your cheek moved, if at all. Results?

Unless I have forgotten, 88 fps is 60 mph, so I don't think the referenced rifle is going 55 mph at 23 fps.

And getting out the calculator, it's more like 15.68 mph. Yep, 88 fps is 60 mph.

BTAIM, straight stocks kick less for me. Stocks with a lot of drop are going to pivot up and smack you, does with me anyway. I know there are guys that swear by high drop stocks so it must be a difference in physique.

I ain't into practicing a strict technique: a death grip on the forend, etc. because when the snap shot is needed, is there really time for the "bench rest" technique?

And maybe Winchester had it right with their Monte Carlo stocks. Hmmmm.

It all boils down to YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
Thanks for the definition. As I see it the point of contention here is that some think that their cheek stays in the same position on the comb under recoil of a .470 or something of comparable recoil. I totally disagree.
Try this simple experiment. Mount your rifle like you were going to shoot it. Have a friend mark where the front of your cheek is on the comb. Take the rifle down and put a piece of tape on the comb starting in front of where your cheek was. Put some lipstick on the tape. Load and fire your .470 as you normally do. Check your face for lipstick. Check the tape to see how far forward your cheek moved, if at all. Results?

You don't get it. Go back and reread 400NitroExpress's and my posts on comb shape and cast.

JPK

quote:

If you really want to experience the face slap, sharp recoil, try shooting one of those Mossberg or Remington Police 12gauge shotguns and don't hold firmly on the forearm, pushing foreward and a firm grip on the stock. On second thought, don't do it, it is not pleasant after a full afternoon of shooting the damn things. Much rather shoot the Lott.

MFD,

Here is an even worse combo, take a 12ga field stocked shotgun and replace the barrel with a barrel set up for a cantalever scope mount. Shoot a 3" slug through it. Then find something to wipe the blood off. Why? too low a comb and no cheek weld.

Solution? Either a new stock or a lace on or velcro on cheek piece to raise the comb.

JPK

JPK,
No thank you for no doubt such an arrangement would definitely wake you up! Have not shot slugs in those Police guns, but the buckshot is strong enough for me. Personally I can't see how you could shoot any long gun well without a good cheek weld, but sure others seem to manage without it.

quote:

JPK
one of us

Posted 02 December 2009 00:44 Hide Post
When your cheek and the comb move as one, there can be no bruising.

It is only when the comb can move independently of the cheek and vice versa that there can be bruising.

So a tight cheek weld cures bruising. You get a tighter cheek weld with a bit higher comb, but too much height and you fight to properly see your open sights. So the proper height is important.

This is the post that I disagreed with in the first place. It is true that if your cheek and comb move as one, there can be no bruising. My point is: When someone fires a .470 side by side double rifle, their cheek and the comb do not move as one! In the initial recoil, the rifle moves to the rear and your head stays in the same position. I totally agree with what JPK and 400 say about the comb tapering from the butt to the nose and JPK's comments on cast off (re-read if nec.). The reason this works is because your cheek and the comb are not moving as one. Because the comb is tapered, it is moving parallel or slightly away from your face as the rifle moves to the rear under recoil. If the comb is thick or too wide at the comb nose (not enough taper) then it recoils into your cheek. I'm saying that if your cheek is welded to the comb and moves as one with the comb then the shape of the comb would make no difference under recoil. Does this make any sense at all? Maybe I am a moron. Maybe my math is off. But, I noticed not one person said "I'm going to take your stupid simple test because your wrong."

Touch off 5000ft/lbs of energy and everything is moving, not all of it in the same direction.

But a proper hold and proper cheek weld on a stock with just enough but not too much drop, a thin comb, proper cast will minimize the movement and eliminate any symptoms of that minimal movement, like cheek bruising.

Or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, take a loose hold of a low comb stock, with a fat comb profile and no cast and then touch off that 5000ft/lbs of energy.

The low comb allows the stock to get a running start, the loose hold makes sure there is plenty of relative motion, the lack of cast makes sure that the cheek bone is the target because the shooter needed to reach over the comb to see the sights in-line and the fat comb makes sure the cheek bone over it is hammered as the rifle's muzzles rise.

I wish I could post video of me shooting elephants, or anyone with more than a little experience, for that matter. First there is very, very little muzzle rise, second there is no visible movement between the face and the gun. Physics tells us there must be some, but you can't see it on video.

Look at Buzz Charlton's 1st elephant hunting DVD, you will see some shooters whose rifles are everywhere, who move a lot in recoil, but you will see those who move in unison with their rifles and absorb the recoil without much movement.

JPK

Good post JPK, and he is correct.

We are not saying your face is glued to the stock, but...

If you let your shoulder collaspe and you are pulling the front trigger, then you hand will slide back and slap the back trigger, ie dopuble discharge.
On a scoped gun the scope will hit you in the forehead, usually in the middle.

If your shoulder does not collaspe, or maybe just a little, and your scope is too far back and your cheek on the stock too loose, your head will move foward and the scoe will hit you in the head, usually above or just slightly to one side of your eye.

My face moves abnnout 1/4" on my 450 No2.

How do I know, because an Uncle Mikes type shell holder, being of a fabric will slightly cut my cheek.

I changed to a Murray leather butt sticl shell carrier and problem solved.

After all as JPK says, when you unleash 5000 ft lbs of energy, everything moves a little, you just have to "Cowboy Up" and not let things moove too much.

Kynoch,
If you are thinking of buying the same model of Merkel with the same stock style as your previous 9.3 then, I would say that you are going to experience cheek bruising. Being a production rifle, the stock dimensions are going to be the same. If you still purchase this rifle then be aware that you will probably have to change the stock dimensions and/or your shooting technique.
I hope this helps to answer your question.