AR'ers,

I had a nice conversation with a gentleman this afternnon regarding hunting with "Bore" rifles.
He's had a lot of experience hunting African game with both Bore and Paradox guns...

...Uh-oh, now I'm interested.

Who's got some experience with this type of guns...SAFARIKID???!

...Stories please!

JW

David Powell in Florida knows a lot about bore rifles & Paradox guns. He sells a lot of ammo on GunsInternational (he may own that sight). Check with him.

With vintage guns, David probably has the most practical elephant hunting experience of any man alive. He has shot them with everything from from Ball and Shot guns to 4 and eight bore rifles, to .577 BPE's on and on. Read the forensic tests from the 8 Bore in DGJ (Sherman Bell article). He walk's the walk!

HI JAZ
good to hear from you. When are you going to go with me and shoot a Ele with your 8 bore??????????

Paradox gun is 80-100yrd "rifle" and 20-25yrd scattergun rolled into one. You know, those folding sights to several hundred yrds. on WR 'Fauneta' are pure barrel dressing!

Holland Wembly notes would indicate the later Paradox guns and ammo were capable of accuracy well beyond 100yds. Ross Seyfied has proven that with the right loads and projectiles 250 yd killing shots with an Explora are possible.

the gauge bore rifles may lob their projectile like an artillery round, but the targets shot by them - as shown in the old catalogs - are impressive.

in ohio and southern michigan most deer hunters are using shotguns .... some even use doubles.
and rifled barrels do increase accuracy.

the biggest problem i know of with the paradox and many ga rifles is that you have to reload for them --- there is no 2 1/2" slug round available on the market.

Reloading for the original paradoxes isn't very complex at all. The Explora is a little more complex.

els,
any super magnum recipes you would care to share? I have a lovely Evans, built for a raj, it just needs some quality feed.
Steve

I don't have any pressure tested data for the super magnum. My brain is not working right now but There is a gentleman that will do pressure testing for you. He is set up for crusher and piezo simultaneously. He can help you work up loads that are with in paramiters and proof of your gun. That is th good news. The bad news is that it is not easy to get the velocity with the low pressure that the original carts had. They did Very sophisticated things to get the necessary velocity and still keep it with shot gun proof. If you p.m. me I will try to get the name of the ballistics lab that will pressure test for you latter in the week.

Todd Armbruster????

Sherman Bell????????

yes.....there is alot to loading a 750gr prjectile up to 1500fps and staying within shotgun pressures. I have heard of duplex loads being used, with a small amount of black power used to ignite the smokeless. I'll drop you a pm later in the week.
Steve

Tom Armbrust has made and tested loads for the 20 12 standard and mag. 10 and 8 paradoxs. all loads tested and regulated for the gun on hand. Pure smokeless. Lead crusher and peizo. 5 faunettas all shot great.
Read greeners books and gun trials from england 4 bores out to 200 yards open sights 1 ft group.Not bad when u know your going to be pounded!

Paolo,

in light of the postings following yours, would you have any more comments RE the range and accuracy of the aforementioned bore rifles based on YOUR personal shooting experiences? We await enlightment...

regards,

Rich

I've shot them. They're a blast! Cal Pappas and Omnivorus_Bob both own 4s, 8s, and 10s. Loads able to take a ele aren't bad to shoot. From the concensous I've gathered as far a practicality you're better off with an 8 bore as they weigh less and you don't give up much on power. That said you can create some "unpleasant" elephant loads with a 4 if you wish!

Brett

quote:

That said you can create some "unpleasant" elephant loads with a 4 if you wish!

Following up the blue dot loads are MUCH more pleasant to shoot than black powder loads even with the same projectile at the same velocity. Black power = RECOIL!!! I shot Rob's (Omnivorous_Bob) 4 bore single at 17lbs. The full power load is 14drams of black powder. I shot a 10 dram load which produced 178ft/lbs at 26fps! Yikes! It kicks. Lots of fun and very managable though with good form. I have vids of myself and another shooting those loads, but I'm not sure how to post them.

Brett

I have shot HH 12 paradox @ 100yrd off hand, not a rest both barrels in 5" group. I shot Westley R faunettas shot 4in group both barrels @ on hundred and i am not a expert rifle shot i am a shot gun guy. Ross has had good success with them out to 200 or 250. With practice could tighten them up a bit. they are not tack drivers but shoot good, best of both worlds. The main prob is nobody has regulated the correct load for many years and yes most can be regulated for smokeless loads with very safe Psi. ours are Non canister powder. many that we see have been screwed with by taking some of the ratchet rifling out to shoot sabots or rib problems. not good just lost all the value! we tried 15 differnt bullet designs and wieghts on the 20. 5 out the 6 W.R. faunettas shot great with the same load.

quote:

You know, those folding sights to several hundred yrds. on WR 'Fauneta' are pure barrel dressing!

I'd be willing to bet they'll hit right where they say they will with the loads they were regulated for.......if the shooter is capable.

I have a 1913 vintage 12 bore Holland Royal Paradox that I reload for. It's as accurate as any Double Rifle I own. It was my first experience casting my own slugs. Looking back on it, it was very easy to get to regulate.

The Holland Paradox ammo is available from Lewis Drake.

http://www.drake.net/products/...red-plastic?id=29602

So far I have killed one pig with it. The Paradox bullet went right through and the pig ran about 20 yds and fell over. It's amazing what a .735 hole can do!

h an h for the 12 are now avalable that is the easy load. they had some help from people i know in the states.

It is cool they brought it the paradox back. All these old guns need not sit in a closet or a safe. they should be used with safe loads and enjoyed. they would not have sold if they did not work. they did the job well. Carrol Shelby once said he did not mind a few of his cars in museums but he said the rest should be driven and used for what he designed them for, racing.

quote:

Holland Wembly notes would indicate the later Paradox guns and ammo were capable of accuracy well beyond 100yds. Ross Seyfied has proven that with the right loads and projectiles 250 yd killing shots with an Explora are possible.

Darn sure hope so....Just got me an H&H paradox (here tomorrow) and will put it to the test!

JW

Congratulations on your new aquisition! When was your paradox manufactured or what is the # sequence?
As above the virtues of the paradox are many. Best of both worlds, serious game rifle and game gun. Chambered in 10 or 8 bore they are dangerous game guns also.

Very interesting data.

I am not as much concerned about the trajectory of the "ball" projectiles as I am about the shot patterning.

Who is making "Nitro for Black Powder" loadings for "Ball / conical" here in the states?

My gun was made 1895.

Thanks,

JW

Very good information - thanks.

My gun is marked for Black Powder, or so I presume given there are no definative "NP" / BNP markings to the contrary.

JW

Most likely your gun will regulate with the standard Ross Seyfried loading of Unique as printed in DGJ. I would guess most original 12 bore BP paradoxes would have been re- regulated with 28 or 30 grains cordite and a standard paradox bullet. Later guns were regulated with 33, 36 and even 40 grains cordite and perhaps the long range capped bullet.
It is clear Holland regulated each paradox with ball and also patterned each gun using #6 shot. This ledger page denotes the charge, shot charge and pattern for each barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Very good information - thanks.

My gun is marked for Black Powder, or so I presume given there are no definative "NP" / BNP markings to the contrary.

JW

Jeff, the "NP" nitro mark came out in 1904 so your gun wouldn't have been marked that way. It may still have been nitro prooved. What is marked exactly on the flats?

i use mine and love them to pieces, i have a I. Hollis & sons nitro shot and ball gun that i have been working to get to shoot again, now it does using this load from
Graeme wrights book.
the load is: 33 grns of WIN 571 with a fosbury slug and a felt wad to take up airspace in the hull. it actually gives me 1100 fps which i think is because of the 30" barrels.
I am working on an old warrior as this is being typed which is my A. Henry Jones under lever sidelock in a fully rifled 12 bore, this is a true bore rifle in the 7-9 drams of black with a bullet around 7-800 grains weight. from the old books this should give me around 1800 fps, but we will see when it is done.

best

peter

Jeff,
Did you receive your paradox? You never stated if it was a Royal a hammergun or?

It is wiht an extreamly heavy heart that I notify you of the passsing of Tomo577. Here is his obit.

We had our differences, but had many common interests also.


Frank "Tom" Ondrus

Frank "Tom" Ondrus, age 66, passed away April 13, 2010 at Erie Health Canter after a long illness. A resident of Albion, for five years, and previous resident of Austinburg, Ohio, for 15 years, where he owned and operated Cable Tool. An avid big game hunter who traveled to Africa nine times. He was a loving husband of Coral; a dear father of Suzanne, Christiana, Mike, Jake, Josh, and Krys; grandfather of Cierra and Aneveah; brother of the late James; son of the late Frank and Ann; and son in law of Edward and Cheryl Spencer. Visitation from 4 to 8 p.m. and a chapel service at 7:30 p.m. to be held at Zele Funeral Home, 452 East 152nd St., Cleveland, OH 44110, on Sunday April 18, 2010.
He had a very bad heart, but continued to go to Africa, despite the physical problems. He hunted from a motorized cart in his last days.
Many things can be said, but "He saw the Elephant" He did what many of us only dream of. He is reponsible for my interest in Africa.

May he find unlimited game, Dangerous, and wild, and twice as much ammo, and s good double rifle in the Happy Hunting Grounds.