Gentlemen,
I have purchased an old .450BPE and need advise on components for reloading.
1)What shell holder number fits the thin rimmed 450BPE?
2)Are the dies the same as .450NE?
3)Are the 4D dies OK, or do I need RCBS?
4)Was the standard bullet weight 300gr? (I am only going to shoot cast bullets in this one).

I am getting ready to order components now and will pick up the rifle next week.
Thanks for the information, ND

I have loaded Nitro for Black loads for my 450 No2 and my 450/400 3 1/4" with lead and cast bullets.

Your case should be the same as the 450 Nitro 3 1/4".

I would load IMR 4198, and use Dacron polyester pillow stuffing.

You can get it at a Craft or Sewing store.

I weigh my filler on my reloading scale.

The filler MUST be compressed between the bullet and the powder.

What you think is too much compression is better than not enough.

Cast bullets can be very hard to get to shoot good. I would also get some 300gr jacketed bullets.

NE 450 No2,
Thanks! I wasn't sure on the Dies/Cases, due to how some suppliers list a seperate .450BPE, and some just .450NE.
My friend loads 46gr of IMR4198 and 2gr filler under a Meister 300gr hard cast bullet for his 1890's Lang. It groups great!
Are the jacketed soft bullets safe in these old damascus barrels? Mine is in excellent condition.
Oh yeah...here is the link to Champlins posting on my Joseph Harkom. I'm kind of excited about it.
http://champlinarms.com/Defaul...StyleID=3&GunID=1329

That is a nice looking double.

I would try cast bullets first.

Anything from 300 to 380gr should work OK.

46gr of IMR 4198 soulds like a lot for damascus barrels, I would start with around 40gr, but check other sources besides me.

Also 2gr of poly does not sound like enough.

I would think around 12 gr or so would be needed to be compressed.

Nitrodave

Let me add that I have shot a few 450BPE and 500BPE doubles owned by other DRSS members and they make great deer and wild pig hunting guns.

I would not hesitate to use one for black bear over bait or elk in the thick.

I use RCBS dies for my doubles and also use their file trim die.

You might want to order 2 shell plates as with the thin rim you might break a shell plate, I did.

Also if the double needs a litle bit of wood work done JJ Perodeau does excellent work, wood and metal.

The word is that IF you can wait a bit, Hornady is going to be shipping their new dies out for the 450 NE. They should be about $80 or so. But it'll be another 6-8 weeks.

Mike,
I'm probably just going to get the 4D dies to get started. I'm not very good at waiting. I will get a set of the Hornady dies when available. I have a dozen or so, sets of Hornady dies and like them...probably have 50 sets of RCBS, but they are talking 3-months.

450 No2,
I appreciate the advise. The load I stated came from JJ. One of my truck stops is in Enid, so when I go to check up on the store, I usually go spend a few hours with George and JJ.
The sliver missing on the forend, is virtually invisible. I may have JJ look at it after I play with it a while. I am having him put an ivory bead on the front of my Searcy .470 now.
JJ is so backed up, that he doesn't build any new guns anymore...only repairs. Two weeks ago, we discussed this and he said that his single shot stalking rifle was the last gun he made...If I remember correctly, that was around 10 years ago. The Champlin bolt guns are amazing! I have a Left Hand .338 Win. They usually have a couple of them in the vault.
This will be the first deer season in over 10 years, that my Champlin will stay in the safe. I've got to get some blood on these DR's this year. The Searcy is running great now, with 500gr Woodleighs. I should have the Harkom figured out by season. The last few DR's my buddy purchased from George, ran on the suggested load perfectly. (470 Manton, 450BPE Lang, and 450/400 3.25" Greener). We were printing tiny groups with the Greener last Saturday.
Sorry for all the babble...I love this stuff!
ND

Nitrodave

It is not babble I love doubles too.
Most any time I go west I go through Enid for the same reason.

Keep us posted on how she shoots.

We ran the Lang 450BPE through the chronograph yesterday. 46gr of IMR4198 is pushing the 300gr Meister hard cast bullet at 1868fps in a 10 shot average. They ranged from 1859 to 1886.

I am picking up the Harkom this week. I am thinking about having JJ do a chamber cast prior to buying dies. "Watchman" told me how to slug the barrel, so I think I can handle that.
Having hell finding dies though...tried Midway, Graf & Son, Huntingtons, Dixie Gun Works, Buffalo Arms...all of them are out, and back orders range from 6 weeks to 3 months. I am going to call 4D direct tomorrow...we'll see. Does anybody have an extra set for sale? PM me if so...
Thanks, ND

NitroDave, the 450 BPE is truly one of the best chamberings for bringing a piece of history to life, as well as being deadly effective on game. IMHO the guru of loading the old BP rifles and shotguns safely and effectively is Ross Seyfried. He and Sherman Bell ( in a series called "Finding out for Myself"} have written a series of articles in The Double Gun Journal that describe all that you need to know.
When last I looked they had back issues that I believe you would find useful.

Best of luck in getting it to shoot ( and regulate)
Larry

Nitrodave I shoot a .450 31/4 Black powder express . It is a single shot .My load is 7 grains of 4227 in first as a priming charge with 70 grains of F.F.G. goex straight on top. This is all held in place with a foam ear plug pushed down on top (Yes, those yellow things you find on the ground at the range, some already have a wax lube on them)I use a 405 grain Westcast projectile (available in U.S.A. see www.westcastings.com.au) but any .45/70 bullet will do .you may have to fiddle a bit to get it to regulate but that is a good mild load and the 4227 pushes out a lot of potential fouling . The original load was 125 grains of Curtis and Harvey's F.F.G. a waxed cardboard wad under a 325 grain copper tubed lead bullet. Have Fun.Regards from OZ.

dhufish,
Thanks for the post! I think I am going to start out with smokeless powder. My dies arrived today, so case preparation begins. I am just waiting on the bullets now. If they come tomorrow or Saturday, I will be shooting this weekend. I will post targets, if I am in the ballpark. I hope to have it running in the next month, because we have a pig hunt planned. I was going to use the 470NE, but this old hammer gun sounds more fun to me. These pigs are supposed to have an attitude, and are hanging out in "head high grass" . My buddy thought it would be fun to take the 2 450BPE's for their first blood, in the hands of their new owners.
Thanks to all, ND

Nitrodave, I took a look at the pictures of your new double. Beautiful!! I know you will enjoy it. Shooting pigs is great fun with a BPE. The last I shot with my 1881 Alex Henry took a 300 gr flat nose at about 40 yds and dropped like a rock.

It took me a while to regulate my AH but the Henry rifling pattern is a bit more difficult than some. My load is 48gr IMR 4198, HDS or Bell brass, CCI 200, 10 grains Dacron pillow stuffing over powder and 300 gr bullet. (either Cast Precision .459 LBT GC, 300 Rem HP or Barnes Original SP) seated to 3.740. MV is 1935fps and regulates well. Obviously work up.

You probably know all this but if not it may help.
BPE rifles started in the 1870s with 270 (deep HP) to 310 gr bullets and later up to 365 gr. Your later gun may crossfire with light bullets indicating it needs the heavier.

Eley charts show the early 450x3 1/4 BPE using 120 gr black powder, 270 gr bullet @ 1975 fps with 11 tons pressure ( British long tons @2260 lb or approx 25,000 psi). Later Eley Nitro for Black used 365 "lead with metal base" bullets vel and pressure not listed but noted as slightly higher velocity.

Recent tests by Sherman Bell show 450 BPE with 300 gr LBT and 48 gr IMR 4198 give 1974 fps at 22,200. This did not use the Dacron however which I think is needed, so just use as a guide.

Best of luck. If you find you need heavier bullets and cannot locate any PM me, I think I still have a 350 mould somewhere and I'll cast you some to try.

Larry

Chief,
Thanks for the complement. I think the gun is in great condition and simply beautiful. I can't seem to put it down for very long before I'm back spinning the combo on the safe again.

Fantastic information!!! I didn't know the data on the original loads for late 1800's. I am starting with 300gr Meister RNFP and 46gr 4198. My friend uses 2gr dacron, but everyone is telling me they use around 10gr???

Good information on the move to heavier bullets in the later year guns. I haven't researched the build date of mine yet, but I am told that Dickson is still in control of the Harkom records. I am guessing mine is from the 1890's. If the 300gr slugs work, I will use them, if not, I will look to heavier bullets.

Can someone tell me if it is safe to shoot jacketed softs like the Hornady 350RN in these Damascus barrels? George Caswell rated my bores as "Excellent Plus", but I forgot to ask him about jacketed bullets. I'm kinda scared to even try them.
Thanks for the help, ND

Nitrodave, glad to give any help I can. There are a lot of opinions and thoughts on this and others may offer different perspectives.

The use of lots of Dacron is to prevent chamber ringing. The theory is that without it the powder ignition rushes forward and treats the bullet as a chamber obsruction and rings the chamber. Lot's of people don't use it and have no trouble. I am following Ross Seyfrieds recipe and feel he knows better than I.

Downside of lots of Dacron is a cloud of fluff on firing that I hate. Kynock used a black foam in their current Nitro for black load that I understand is available. I am going to try some.

Dickson has the records for many of the old makers. Fifteen or so years ago they sent me a photocopy of the original order page for my
AH. All the specs including original owner and the fact it was chambered for coiled brass cases. VERY cool!!!! Hope they have yours.

On jacketed. I have fired a few but prefer cast since I now have them shooting well, and a hard cast flat nose is devastating on game. Others may help here. I have heard opposing views. The most knowledgable source I know says they are OK "copper is softer than the softest iron or steel of Damascus". But I also heard Holland and Holland said at one time NO.

Let us know how she shoots.

Larry

Problems....CRAP!!! The cases won't chamber. I FL sized a few down to where the die cammed over on the shell holder. Trimmed them to 3.240", and they won't chamber. I set the case head on top of the shell holder and pushed it into the die another 1/8", then tapped it out with a wood dowel. The action would start to close on this one, but still no-go. The chamber is leaving faint streaks on the case from .75" to 1.5" from the case head. This appears to me, where the tension is coming from.

I called George Caswell at Champlins and he suggested it is probably a minimum dimension chamber. George is contacting the former owner to see what he says.

I am thinking a chamber cast in next, to see what the true measurements are. I can then have 4D make a custom sizer die to match.

Last option is to have JJ open the chambers up, to match standard dimensions. I would really hate to do this, so I will exhaust all other options first. Surely I can figure this one out.

Any ideas???
Thanks, ND

Dave--A couple of things. What is the OD of the case mouth on a loaded round that will chamber? I ask because I have run into this on some original Sharps that have tighter chambers than today's rifles.

Try a Lyman taper crimp die for a 45 3 1/4 Sharps and see if it won't bring the OD of the case mouth down to where it will chamber. I have a 45 2.4 Sharps that I have to take the case mouth OD down to .472 before it will chamber.

Also, I would avoid the jacketed bullets like the plague, especially with the Damascus barrels. You might just find that paper patched lead alloy bullets are the cat's britches for this rifle.

Sharpsguy,
My case mouth measures .472 OD, but I don't think this is where I am sticking. The marks on the case are from .75" to 1.5" from the base.
I can't measure a case that "will" chamber, because I haven't been able to get one to chamber yet.
I hope to find out more from the prior owner on Monday. If not, I will do a chamber cast.
Thanks, ND

Nitrodave--Please check your PM.

Dave, if it helps I measured some cases as fired and full length sized in RCBS dies.
Keep in mind I think my chamber is non standard because it was originally chambered for coiled cases and has been rechambered at some time in the past. Also I do not full length size to avoid overworking brass, only minimally to chamber and grip bullets.

From back of case to: .75 in, 1 inch, 1.5 in, and mouth.
Fired: .535, .525, .517, .489 ( both chamber's cases were within .002)

FLS: .529, .522 .504, .472

Hope this helps
Larry

Larry,
My measurements on the case I pushed on into the die(that sitll won't chamber) are:

.75" from head = .530
1.0" = .523
1.5" = .509
mouth OD = .472

By comparison, it looks like the 1.5" mark is where mine is greater by more than .001

You need to do a chamber cast.

Mine is a .450 No 1 Express 2 3/4", and I think I would not have got a 3 1/4" round into it. There are a number of other chamberings that are .450, and there is also the possibility of a separated case in there. My slugged bore is .458.

ALSO, to get loading dies fast and cheap I cut an inch or so off a .45/70 Lee die set and Dremeled the new mouths smooth, making a neck-size die set. A made-up collar and reaming with a 14.5mm drill got the .45/70 crimp die working very nicely on the .450 No 1.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisPer:
You need to do a chamber cast.

Mine is a .450 No 1 Express 2 3/4", and I think I would not have got a 3 1/4" round into it. There are a number of other chamberings that are .450, and there is also the possibility of a separated case in there. My slugged bore is .458.

ALSO, to get loading dies fast and cheap I cut an inch or so off a .45/70 Lee die set and Dremeled the new mouths smooth, making a neck-size die set. A made-up collar and reaming with a 14.5mm drill got the .45/70 crimp die working very nicely on the .450 No 1.

Chrisper, what parent case do you make your 450No1 Express cases from, or do you have a good dourse of factory cases? I have a Westley Richards hammerless box lock, ejector double rifle with fluid steel barrels chambered for 450No1 Express, and I have to make my cases from 475 No2 cases then shorten, and thin the flange from the front side. 475 No2 brass is not only very expensive, but very hard to find or form in a die, and are a pain in the butt to make. I rarely shoot this rifle simply because it is such a pain to load for!