I have a question from a customer, and I am not sure of the answer. What would be the advantage of having sidelocks instead of a boxlock? On a Heym double the sidelocks might add $4,800. to the cost. Is it worth it? Would it enhance resale value?
Thanks for your help on this.
Charles Prince
Eurogun Imports, Inc.

YOU MAY HAVE STIRRED UP A HORNETS NEST WITH YOUR QUESTION !
a sidelock rifle is usually more elegant than a boxlock in overall flow of lines. and the lock area gives more room for engraving. if the locks are hand detachable and can be removed without tools it aids in cleaning and servicing the rifle, especially after a drenching rain.

downside - more wood has to be removed at the head of the stock for the lockwork. unless stocked by a knowledgeable maker it can be a potential break point.

regarding resale.... there are many who "want" a sidelock but few who actually buy one.... mostly due to the add'l cost. maybe suggest to the customer if he likes a sidelock , buy it. he can worry about resale after he is dead !!

I think sidelocks used to be considered more reliable because each firing mechanism was completely separate (they share no common parts). Today's boxlocks are considered tougher and more reliable, though, than today's sidelocks (though there's still the small chance that a common part on a boxlock could break and leave you with an unshootable weapon). Also, as stated above the hand detachable sidelock was easier to open up and fix or clean.

Sidelocks are always more money, and offer more surface area to engrave.

HTH,

Steve

Charles,

Haven't you been an authorized dealer for Chapuis, Heym and Kreighoff for a while now?

Just seems like a strange question from a double rifle dealer.

I "gotta" join with Jim Manion as I had the same silly question pop into my pea brain.

For only an extra 5K you should definitely get the sidelock.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
I think sidelocks used to be considered more reliable because each firing mechanism was completely separate (they share no common parts). Steve

Box locks are completely seperate systems as well, and are just as reliable as a sidelock!

If your customer simply likes the looks of the side lock better than the box lock, have buy the boxlock wiith side plates. The look is the same, but the stock is stronger on the wrist area. Personally I don't see the value in the sidelocks enough to justify an extra 5K in price. Unless they are hand detachable, nothing is gained by the side lock. They shoot no better, and aren't stronger, and cost considerably more. The side plated box lock looks exactly the same, so I'd spend the extra 5K for trophy fees on a hunt!

I have been a Helm dealer for about 7 years and have sold maybe 80% of the Heym rifles sold in the USA. No customer has ever asked me those specific questions regarding sidelocks. Rather than tell him the side locks were better and try to add $4,800.00 to the sale, I thought I would get some good advice here and be able to pass it along to him. I have sold a sidelock Heym, but the customer was only interested in the appearance, not the mechanical advantages or disadvantages. Thank you for the comments on the question. It is very helpful and I will refer my cliet here. I think a non partisan opinion is probably better than mine.

Charles,
That's a great response.

IMO, the sidelock ejector gun is the pinnacle of guncraftmanship. When I have the beans I'll get one for just that reason. Is it better or more reliable than a high grade boxlock. IMO, no.

You might as well get the best of both worlds, and go with one incorporating components of John Deeley and Leslie B. Taylor pat. of 1897. Made in Birmingham UK, but can be bought in Montana USA.

ok - sidelocks are a historical thing. they were developed for their ease of disassembly, so that the action parts could be cleans out easily. From that point on it became visual. The hand detachable sidelock is a bit more fragile in the stock area because the wood gets really thin, but the good ones are really a work of art. are they worth more money? that a relative thing. if you got it, you spend it, just like anything else. I have 4 at the moment & think they are worth the $$, but I also accumulated them over a long time period. If I was buying at todays prices I sure wouldn't have 4 of them, probably not any.

Doesn't anyone else think that the Westley Richards detachable boxlock is the pinnacle of double rifle design? I have owned two, a .577 and a .375 H&H, both with extra locks in the gun case, and, sadly, sold them both, the big one to Elmer Keith many years ago.

i have a westley droplock with all the bells & whistles . it is a beautiful rifle but i wouldn't give up my royal for another.

the germans, i think it was merkel, copied the droplock design around or before ww4.

the droplock is a wonderful thing but it doesn't have the "pizzazz" of a sidelock.
i'll try to post a picture of it here later

Aside from the technical differences, all else being equal, I would definitely pick a sidelock. I fell for that allure when looking for a gun. Of course we know that normally the prices of the two systems are not equal, but I think the more costly sidelock should retain a higher market value, so it's not necessarily money thrown away. With no differences in performance, the decision is largely just what pleases the gun's owner and whether or not the entrance fee impacts whether or not you happen to do a particular deal.

A discussion on this very subject between two British authorities on the British Gun Trade's forum.

Cheers!

For a new Heym, no, I don't think the extra money is worth it from the resale perspective. From the utility perspective (assuming that he's buying the gun to hunt with), I'd go with the boxlock for a double rifle.

In terms of action strength, the back action sidelocks, like Holland's Royals and Dominions, are probably the best, but the boxlock is more than strong enough. Over long years of service the weak link of large bore double rifles is the stock-head, and the boxlocks give far fewer problems here than sidelocks.

I've always considered the boxlock to be the ultimate development of hammerless double gun design, with the droplock perhaps at it's pinnacle. The best boxlock gives up nothing to the sidelock in terms of handling and shootability. I've never been fond of Westleys and I do wish someone else made the droplocks. Yes, someone other than Westley used to build droplocks, but it wasn't Merkel and they weren't German - it was Lebeau-Courally. They haven't built any in years that I'm aware of, but when they did, they were actually priced higher than the Westley's of the time and were better guns, but they're extremely hard to find today.

Yeah, in terms of cleaning in the field, the hand detachable sidelock and the droplock offer an advantage over the boxlock, but it's very slight in my view. I've carried boxlock rifles through many a monsoon - I carried my medium bore through a solid week of hard rain a number of years ago - but have always found the standard interval strip and clean more than sufficient. In the event of breakage in the field, neither the HD sidelock nor the droplock offer an advantage over the boxlock unless spare locks are provided, which is never the case with HD sidelocks and is rarely so with droplocks.

Especially with respect to double rifles, sidelocks are the evolutionary "missing link" of the type and, as such, warm the cockles of the hearts of collectors and engravers. They're just for lookin' at though. Boxlocks are for huntin' and shootin'.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

trying to post pics of a westley richards droplock owned by the founder of south afric a.

If you email them to me I will post. You have my email from my PM.

Posted for Tom:

for bulldog 563

thanks for posting the pictures. i'll have to get some better individual pics as the detail gets lost in this size.

the rifle was built in 1908 for lord selborne.
he is the man who convinced parliament to combine the two old boar republics - transvaal and orange free state with the cape colony to form the union of south africa. this was done by passing the selborne amendment which created the south africa we know today.

built in the then new 303 caliber it has all options westley offered. it is built on their patent "c" dolls head action, it is an ejector rifle, has safe & bolted safety, single selective trigger, full length pg tang, pistolgrip trap with spare ivory nightsight, multiple leaf rear sight and their patent fold down front sight protector.gold inlays are of a bushbuck and a leopard.
it is one of the very early droplocks which was made before they started hinging the bottom plate. the internal mechanism is like a swiss watch ! quite a piece of workmanship.

Thanks to you all for your opinions about sidelocks vs boxlock. My customer decided on the boxlock after reading your comments. He said it was very helpful to him in making his decision.
Best regards,
Charles

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
thanks for posting the pictures. i'll have to get some better individual pics as the detail gets lost in this size.

Hi Tom,
If you go to the trouble of taking more pictures of this rifle, I would really love to see a close-up of the patented front sight protector.

I’ve been trying to find a good photo of this sight for some time, but without much luck. I’ve looked in my old WR catalogs. The sight is described, but without illustration.

Many thanks,

- stu

for stu c

i'll try to get you pics later this week. but so far i can't post pics here. i can email them to you - my email cabletools@alltel.net pls send me yours.

thanks Tom.
spinfish@gmail.com

More photos of tomo577's Westley Richards.
Thanks for sharing them Tom!