I may have the opportunity to purchase the aforementioned rifle, and it would be my first double. The value of these rifles varies tremendously, though the .450's do not come up for sale as much as te .450/400 and .470. I will get to shoot it soon, and will post some pictures. I don't really know what to look for in a double rifle besides shooting to check regulation, and what I know about double barreled shotguns and their longivity, top lever position being right of center, etc.

The seller is a friend, and would probally let me put it on lay-away over a few years. The other option is a new Heym.

How does it look..? Does it appear to have been taken good care of..?

Are the barrels fine..? As Cal Pappas says, barrels are the only thing that cant be fixed on a double..

Take the fore-tree off...shake rifle while holding it in pistol grip and action...any looseness between action and barrels..? If so it will cost money to fix..

What is the asking price..?

Colin:
My new book is exactly what one new to doubles needs. Chapters on how to buy, repair, a glossary of double rifle terms, how to reload, where to get items for a double, etc., As Pondoro stated, the bore is the only thing that can't be repaired.
Cal

Cal's book is immediately what I thought of. Has a complete chapter dedicated to the subject.

+1

What's a Heym? Sounds like something a cockney bloke eats with eggs. Firearms chosen for sale by the Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd were generally of very good quality.

I will actually see it and shoot it soon. I would say I could get it for 15k, maybe a little less. It has never been hunted or carried in the field, just range use.

Assuming the rifle, particularly the bores, are in good condition, an Army & Navy .450 3 1/4" for $15K would be a very good deal in my view.

That would be a steal! If you look at the Champlin website and similar sources, that price is almost like a BPE rifle!

Ditto what Mike wrote above.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
What's a Heym? Sounds like something a cockney bloke eats with eggs. Firearms chosen for sale by the Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd were generally of very good quality.

What Grenadier said!

The firearms sold by the Army & Navy Co-op were made by several makers but were most times the solid quality of each maker from field grade to top of the line!

I had a 450-400 3 inch A&N that was one of the best doubles I've ever owned. I wish I still had it.
.....................................................................

450 NE or BPE; makes a lot of difference and 15k for a BP gun is too much.
Post a pic of it and of the markings and proof marks.
Is it a hammer gun?

If this rifle is solid in all respects you have to buy it. I owned an A&N 450 3 1/4 as well and, like Mac, wish I had it back. If you pass please send me a pm.

Dutch

I have Sabatti 450 NE for $4500 and it shoots like a charm
$ 15,000 is a waste, but each to their own.
Majority of doubles are way overpriced, period

Any rifle can throw lead, any house will keep the rain out, and any car will get you where you are going. With that mentality we'd all be living in mobile homes and driving Nissan Versas.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Any rifle can throw lead, any house will keep the rain out, and any car will get you where you are going. With that mentality we'd all be living in mobile homes and driving Nissan Versas.

...and shooting Sabatti's.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Any rifle can throw lead, any house will keep the rain out, and any car will get you where you are going. With that mentality we'd all be living in mobile homes and driving Nissan Versas.

Precisely.

Personally, I would ask three questions about it and buy it sight unseen if the answers were: (1) yes it is a nitro rifle; (2) yes the bores are excellent; and, (3) yes it is on face.

$15K is a helluva price on a nitro rifle, and about right on a BPE.

Plenty of BPEs out there for half that. Look on gunsint.
It has to be a NE to be worth 15k, to me. And to the rest of the market. Maybe not here.

quote:

Personally, I would ask three questions about it and buy it sight unseen if the answers were: (1) yes it is a nitro rifle; (2) yes the bores are excellent; and, (3) yes it is on face.

So, an 11" left hand stock, a conversion to single trigger, and shortened barrels wouldn't bother you? I have seen too much to buy a gun unseen.

Noted and agree!

Well stated. +2

Colin, I have owned a couple A/N with the last one being a fair upgrade in a 450 3 1/4. Loved the gun and only when I thought my elephant hunting may be slower did I sell it to a fairly prolific poster on AR and he just shot an elephant with it. If you want to PM me with some contact info I will be glad to talk you through what I know about the guns and I can connect you with the registry in Scotland that has all the A/N details from when guns were originaly made with specifics and for whom. Let me know if I can help and having had a few HEYMS as well and loving them too, I would pick the English if it was all it was supposed to be and fit me. If you PM, send me a phone number

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I have Sabatti 450 NE for $4500 and it shoots like a charm
$ 15,000 is a waste, but each to their own.
Majority of doubles are way overpriced, period

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I have Sabatti 450 NE for $4500 and it shoots like a charm
$ 15,000 is a waste, but each to their own.
Majority of doubles are way overpriced, period

Gents:
In Kansas City on my way home to Alaska after killing two gobblers. It always pleases me to read opinions on doubles. For all of you gents out there who love Sabattis and others, keep it up! The more vintage doubles remaining for Todd and I to choose from the better. If all the Sabatti and Baikal guys come over from the dark side the supply will lessen and the price will rise.
LONG LIVE SABATTI AND DREMEL TOOLS!
Cheers,
Cal

You guys will still have your overpriced high dollar double rifles. I, and others, will have to be content with our Krieghoffs and Merkels and Searcys.
I can't understand the need to denigrate those who simply can't play in that stratosphere of prices. It doesn't help anyone to continually bash the owners of the lower cost rifles. Really, those guys won't hurt your high end rifles at all and are no threat to you.
Who said there is no double rifle snobbery here? Why can't everyone can respect other's opinions, tastes, and budgets?

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You guys will still have your overpriced high dollar double rifles. I, and others, will have to be content with our Krieghoffs and Merkels and Searcys.
I can't understand the need to denigrate those who simply can't play in that stratosphere of prices. It doesn't help anyone to continually bash the owners of the lower cost rifles. Really, those guys won't hurt your high end rifles at all and are no threat to you.
Who said there is no double rifle snobbery here? Why can't everyone can respect other's opinions, tastes, and budgets?

Like dpcd, I think there are very well made double rifles that were made in other countries other than the UK. I've owned examples of many makes that I could never find fault with.

That said I am not a double rifle snob and have nothing against any make made anyplace as long as it is done properly. Unfortunately simply because a firearm has two barrels is not necessarily an indication of quality.

My problem with "CHEAP" doubles is not the same as with a moderately prices double rifle and has nothing to do with who made the rifle but how well the rifle works, and WHERE the short-cuts were made to achieve that price point. A "CHEAP" double that doesn't work properly is over priced at any price.

A moderately priced double rifle, that works properly IMO, is one that is not necessarily the same as a cheap one that doesn't work at all or one that it is a $5K toss-up that may or may not work properly. Below quoted from dpcd, those are not cheap "double" rifles but workable double rifles that can be depended on when the crap hits the fan but may not have top engraving but regulates well and is solidly made.

quote:

Krieghoffs and Merkels and Searcys.

The above makes are not cheap double rifles, but are moderately priced. However one can depend on those makes to work when needed!

Any make that lets a lot of their mistakes get on to the market and try to hide it with bling, is cheating their customers. No amount of BLING will make their product worth even the low price they hang on the tag in the trigger guard. Lip-stick on a pig is still just a fancy pig!

......................................................................................

There are people, many on this forum, who enjoy, personally, disparaging those who own and shoot double rifles that cost less than the high end pieces they enjoy. That includes any rifle costing less than $15000; you have all seen it. Owners of rifles that perform perfectly well are made to feel like second class shooters. No call for it. It does not help the sport one whit. One can choose not to buy the medium and lower end stuff, and choose not to like the rifles even though they may perform well, but the attacks are personal on the owners. No true sporting Gentleman would do that. True story, years ago, I was showing one of the "English only" double rifle guys my new Krieghoff 450-400. He looked down his nose, though the bottoms of his glasses and said, dismissively, "You should have spent twice that and bought a classic English rifle". He was an ass.

I am one of the guys that have been owning K-Guns (500/416 and 470NE) and have written a lot here a bout my experiences with them. I have never experienced the "gun snobbery" described here with regards to brands. I have seen Sabatti been dumped on with good reason for dremel-regulation. Blaser s2 has also been bashed a little, but that is also for design and not price reasons. Even Baikals have been discussed here without anyone being condecending...

The only snobbery I have seen is from certain people in caliber discussions. "500NE trumps all, if one disagrees, one is an idiot". That has nothing to do with money. 20 years ago the same was said about .470NE, trends change, and there will always be enforcers of current trends....

dpcd and others:
I do pick on Sabatti due to the regulation workmanship of the past. Snobbery, no. I am not a wealthy gent (and I'm not a gent, either), just a retired school teacher. I'm not in a financial bracket to be a snob. I also don't make any negative comments about Heym, Searcy, Merkel, V-C, K-guns, or any of the mid priced doubles. In fact, I have directed many who contact me to their location for purchase. A few fellas I personally know have Sabattis and love them and they are accurate. My feelings are directed to the old world quality of vintage doubles. I do not own any post WWII English or Scotttish doubles as my taste in engraving styles prefers the earlier executions. Most of what I say is in jest (even when directed toward Shootaway) but I understand how my words can be perceived. My apologies to anyone I offended. All doubles are welcome at the shoots here and there have been and will be both Sabatti and Baikal and Pedersoli's there. They will be shooting with me and mine and I will be next to the fellas with Holland Royals and WR drop locks, some with amazing provenance. It's all great fun and we all learn from each other's experiences.
Cheers,
Cal

Searcys and K-Guns are NOT cheap or low end doubles!. That said, if you have a well-regulated Sabatti they are a good value, just as long as you realize one gets what you pay for. Merkel on the other hand haven't impressed me one bit, especially for the price, and apparently, they have not figured out how to reliably keep them from doubling and please! a PLASTIC grip cap???

The weather here has not cooperated but I should be able to see, shoot and photograph the rifle soon.

I know the rifle is in good condition, but really have no idea on what it will be offered to me for. At the very least it will be almost at the too reaches of my ability to acquire it. The only reason it can even consider it is that the seller is a friend and would perhaps let me put it on payments over time. So if it doesn't work out, I'll be working on finding something a little more affordable. Most likely a used searcy or heym, or a new krieghoff or chapuis. If the searcy in the classifieds was a .450-400 or .375 flanged I would be all over it.

Colin

Buy the 500 that Butch has for sale @ $9500.00 !

The .500 is just too much for what I would use it for currently.

Gentlemen I must agree with Cal's post above! I don't for one minute think of Cal as a snob, just a guy who collects what he loves.

I think most gun people tend to talk what they know best and Cal is no different. What he knows is UK doubles, and so collects UK doubles. He also is fond of ultra large chambered doubles as well, so those are what he discusses. I don't consider that constituting SNOBISH attitude. I have one of his latest books and from cover to cover it discusses only quality bore doubles and not one mention of poor quality by any maker, and I'm quite sure he knows when he sees it.

In my case I care more about how well a double rifle is put together, and how well it shoots than how it is decorated or what country it was made in.

My interest is how the rifle works when the owner needs it most. The last of my consideration is what country the rifle was made in. However, I will not buy from a maker that has shown to not care much for the quality of their product, and try to hide the shortcuts with bling! Don't get me wrong, I like beautifully engraved double rifles just like anyone else but when the cost of the decoration cost enough that the money would allow me to buy another working double in another chambering then I can forego the decoration or the name of a particular maker. If that makes me a snob so be it!

......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You guys will still have your overpriced high dollar double rifles. I, and others, will have to be content with our Krieghoffs and Merkels and Searcys.
I can't understand the need to denigrate those who simply can't play in that stratosphere of prices. It doesn't help anyone to continually bash the owners of the lower cost rifles. Really, those guys won't hurt your high end rifles at all and are no threat to you.
Who said there is no double rifle snobbery here? Why can't everyone can respect other's opinions, tastes, and budgets?

LMAO on that one if it was directed at me for my earlier comment. Me, I shoot Merkels, VCs, and Chapuis. Hardly the "High End" guns! But my comment was in specific response to a Sabatti shooter telling the forum than any double of higher quality than a Sabatti is a waste of money! Reverse Snobbery perhaps?

THAT, is truly laughable!! Now, where is my dremel tool?

I prefer the English doubles and the .500 NE cartridge. If someone else prefers Sabatti's and the .450/.400 cartridge that is fine and dandy too. If they believe a Sabatti is a better value than an English double or that English doubles are overpriced . . . well they must just be confused.

I got to shoot this very nice VC in 500NE this weekend. I must confess there was no noticeable difference in recoil between in and my 450.

Jorge, big difference on the other end, though! :-) Now that you know you can handle a 500 that easily, you need to get one.

My comment was directed at no one in particular, and you will notice that I did not mention the S word.
Fact is though, there are those who look down their noses at the medium and lower end of double rifles; and continue to imply that their owners are of some lower class of people who do not deserve to own a double rifle. (In some cases that is actually true)
I have seen it and experienced it.
If the foo shits, wear it. If not, ignore it.