HOW DIFFICULT SHOULD IT BE TO PUSH 450/400 3-1/4" BULLETS

FROM WWW.GSCUSTOM.CO.ZA THROUGH THE BORES WITH A WOODEN

DOWEL? SHOULD YOU NEED TO POUND ON THE ROD PRETTY HARD,

MAYBE EVEN USING A HAMMER, OR SHOULD YOU JUST NEED TO USE

A PUSHING MOTION MAYBE A BIT HARDER THAN LOADING A TYPICAL

MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE?

My www.gscustom.co.za Flat Nosed bullets are supposed to

be .411 and 380 grains. I'll get them measured tomorrow.

I have a question. Using a wooden dowel, I want to push

a couple through each barrel to see if my rifling only cuts

into the bands, or if the shafts get scarred also. Should

I insert the nose of the bullet into the MUZZLE end of the

barrel, push it into the bbl with my thumb, then push it

through so it exits at the chamber end, or should I try to

figure a way to push a bullet into the throat of the rifling

and then push it through so it exits from the muzzle? Of

course I'll make it land on something soft which ever way

I do it. I hope new_guy too can do the "push through"

test with his North Fork bullets, and photo the results for

us to see. I'll photo my results too.

bigfive

I was going to reply in your other thread
but now this has come up, I'll do it here.

I slug all my DR's just to make sure of the calibre and barrel dimensions.

Firstly, wooden dowell by itself tends to expand, fray and generally get stuck in the bore if you keep pounding it. Suggest IF you do it to use a few rods and keep changing them over, cutting the last 1 inch off when used.

I did get a wooden dowel stuck once - took a while to get it out, hence my warning.

I did use an Aluminium rod once but haven't tried another one or things like capping the weooden dowell with a copper or brass cap or something.

Even SOFT, 100% pure lead is hard to push through.

Thoroughly grease / lube / vaseline the bore from end to end first and have some Aerosol oil on hand.

As to which end to ush in from, up to you, once a lead slug is in the bore, you need to hammer it from either end to make sure it has fully expanded anyway.

Now as for pushing a copper jacket or whatever down a bore, I'll leave you to decide to do it or not.

I wouldn't do it on my guns.

Thanks much for that info 500N. How about a soft point WOODLEIGH ?

Big Five Jack

I have slugged a couple of rifle barrels, with lead.

There is no way I would try to drive a jacketed bullet of ANY kind through a rifle or handgun barrel. NO WAY...

I have seen Sniper Rifle barrels RUINED when a dry cotton patch became stuck and then a hammer was used to drive it out.

I do not think a wooden rod would be strong enough..
If you use a metal rod of any kind, there is a very good chance that it will, at some point cause damage to the rifling.

If you don't have a lead slug go buy some of those tear drop shaped fishing sinkers and a metal rod to drive them. Wrap black electeic tape aroung the rod to protect the bore. Then hammer it.

If you're slugging a 400 buy a 3/8 rod. That's .375 dia.

Mike,

The Black Electrical tape doesn't last - tried it.

Maybe you have some that does but I didn't like it.


Re the size of the lead slug, if pushing it down from the chamber end, use one of actually bore size as it swages down as it passes the throat.

If from the muzzle end, I use a Slightly OVERSIZE one and hammer it (a piece of flat wood between the projectile and the hammer !!!)
into the barrel, then once in, make sure it has fully expanded to fill the grooves.


I know someone who decided to use a cast lead slug to measure a bore, except it had some antimony in it and so wasn't 100% pure lead.

Lets say he nearly got it stuck and only just got it out. I think that says not to push any other type of projectile though.

The tape lasts enough to get the slug thru to the other end for me. Use a brass rod if you can find one. Another item I forgot to mention. I round off the sharp edges that is on the 'bore' end with a file.

Guys,

What I am going for is to see if the G S Custom bullet is PROPERLY sized for my rifle.

Gerard can make them basically any diameter shaft and any diameter bands. So if your rifling

is .009 he can make the shaft and bands just right for you rifle. I sent him my slugs that

were used by www.griffinhowe.com to get my measurements for my bores. He sent my slugs

back with the bullets that he made based on the slugs.

Use a set of calipers or a micrometer
and measure the lead slug ?

Why not do it the right way, and use cerosafe? You can check the chambers with cerosafe too...

You can get it from Brownells.

DM

Why not slug your barrel with a lead bullet as described above. Then measure it against your GS bullets. Measure the groove diameter (OD of the driven slug), against the driving bands of the new GS bullet. Then the land diameter (grooves cut in the lead slug), against the shank diameter of the GS bullet. If the GS shank is smaller than the diameter of the grooves cut in the lead slug, there is your answer...
I think this is what 500N is saying above..."Measure the lead slug".
ND

Read Jack's post. His barrels were already slugged by G&H.

What he is trying to do is to test the bullets to ensure that the grooves engrave and the shanks do not.

Jack,

Best option, imo, is to load up a couple of the GS Customs and shoot them.

500Grains drove North Forks down his bore, and it was easy. He used a wooden dowel, iirc, and it was more push than hammer, again, iirc.

Woodleighs were a bitch, according to 500 Grains.

You might drop him a PM on NitroExpress.com

But fire two GS Customs into a target from which you can recover them and you will have your answer.

JPK

Well, JPK, that is the most logical solution put forward so far


if you measure a lead slug, you need to measure it slightly "off" diagonal - on the edge of the raised parts to get the correct diameter.

DM,

Cerosafe WAS used by G&H and measurements made. A bit of difficulty

with measuring is that the bores are SEVEN grooves as opposed to an

even number of grooves. I hear many old Brit made rifles have SEVEN

grooves.

JPK,

No way my GSC's are getting pushed through with wooden dowel, I've

tried but I could not push hard enough. I'll contact 500 Grains at NE. I've

driven one bullet about 90 - 95% of it's OWN length, [about 1.5 inches

overall] into the rifling. But I felt it was requiring too much of a heavy

hand with a metal rod and hammer strikes so I stopped and pushed the

bullet out, back into the chamber with the rod and hammer. ONLY THE

BANDS appear to have been engraved, no engraving appears visible on the

shaft. In the picture you'll see the farthest band from the flat nose is NOT

ENGRAVED. It turns out that my driving the bullet into the rifling was not

quite far enough for that REAR most band to make contact with the rifling.

Looking into the chamber NO damage is apparent. Below are four pic's of

the same bullet.

This may be a dumb question but here it goes. Can I use a solid that was removed from an elephant to confirm bore dimensions on my .470?

I would have it expertly measured and if it appears unbent/undamaged except

for engraving from rifling it will be a reasonable gauge, but a proper job by a

trained "smith" is the truly reliable way to go.

Mike-

Not a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
This may be a dumb question but here it goes. Can I use a solid that was removed from an elephant to confirm bore dimensions on my .470?

Your recovered solid could have upset at some point in it's path through the elephant, causing distortion to the shank.
It's possible that whatever measurements taken from it won't be true to your barrel(s)
Also, it's only from one barrel and you want the numbers from both.

Properly taken pure lead slugs from both the throat end and the muzzle end are the way to go if you really, really want to know what the proper numbers are for the purpose of having custom bullets made for your rifle.



Cheers
Tinker

tinker

I have found the only reliable way was a lead slug pushed all of the way through the barrels.

Interestingly, in all cases, the tighter part of the barrel
was always at the muzzle end.

Do NOT try to slug a bore with jacketed bullets.

Go to this URL.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/faq/index.htm

Scroll down to this article.

How do I measure cylinder throat dimensions for my revolver?


I got the oval sinkers at Wal-Mart among the fishing gear.
For my .45/70 double rifle, I used:

PEG® 8 7 2.5 1/2

Water Gremlin
Egg Sinkers

Catalog Per Pounds Size
Number Pouch Per Doz. (in.)

PEG® 10 14 1.5 1/8
PEG® 9 11 2 1/4
PEG® 8 7 2.5 1/2
PEG® 7 5 2.5 3/4
PEG® 6 4 3 1-0
PEG® 5 3 3.5 1-1/2


Beartooth Says:

The best method I have found is to use oval egg sinkers (from fishing tackle department), otherwise known as slip-sinkers. These sinkers are perfect for slugging not only cylinder throats but barrel groove dimensions as well. The reasons for using them are four-fold:

1. They are usually pure lead, and thus very soft, making them easy to shove through cylinder throats and bores.

2. Their egg shape leaves only a small percentage of their overall dimension which actually bears against the constrictions they are shoved through, unlike a solid lead bullet with lots of bearing surface. This also facilitates ease of shoving them through cylinder throats and rifled bores.

3. They are easy to start into the cylinder or bore since they are egg shaped they are simple to get started.

4. Lastly, and most importantly, they have a longitudinal hole running through them which allows a place for the lead to displace when put through a constriction, thus eliminating "spring-back" or residual memory of the sinker, thereby producing a slug of nearly perfect dimensional characteristics when finished.

Use these sinkers, especially in barrels with a VERY light lubricant. Although I recommend seldom for very many things, WD-40 is a great asset here. If starting down the bore of a barrel, I invert a fired cartridge case over the oval end of the sinker sticking out of the bore, give it a sharp rap with a hammer, and the slug is seated neatly into the muzzle of the firearm. The brass cartridge case will not mar the muzzle's crown, nor the bluing, and gets the job done with minimal deformation of the oval egg sinker.

Damn good idea re the sinkers.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Damn good idea re the sinkers.

Thanks

Agreed.

For those who are a bit put off by 7 groove (or 5 or 9) rifling, it seems like a problem but isn't.

First measurement: Take your slug and set it between the micrometer anvils in the usual manner. Turn the slug between the anvils gently and adjust the micrometer until the slug will rotate with drag, but will rotate all the way around, and yet any more tightening will stop the rotation.

This is the method recommended by many fanciers of British rifles.

Second measurement, for figuring the actual depth of the rifling: Take a fine drill bit, lay it along a rifling depression in the bullet, and tighten the micrometer down on it and read. Now measure just the drill bit, deduct the wet from the dry and you have the land-to-groove measurement. Subtract from the first measurement to get the rifling depth.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisPer:
...Now measure just the drill bit, deduct the wet from the dry and you have
the land-to-groove measurement. Subtract from the first measurement to get
the rifling depth.

Great post above, but please rephrase this final part which I quoted.

I am not understanding it, sorry. I really want to grasp this idea overall.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisPer:
For those who are a bit put off by 7 groove (or 5 or 9) rifling, it seems like a problem but isn't.

First measurement: Take your slug and set it between the micrometer anvils in the usual manner. Turn the slug between the anvils gently and adjust the micrometer until the slug will rotate with drag, but will rotate all the way around, and yet any more tightening will stop the rotation.

This is the method recommended by many fanciers of British rifles.

Second measurement, for figuring the actual depth of the rifling: Take a fine drill bit, lay it along a rifling depression in the bullet, and tighten the micrometer down on it and read. Now measure just the drill bit, deduct the wet from the dry and you have the land-to-groove measurement. Subtract from the first measurement to get the rifling depth.

Jack,

Try this "translation" from Australian to American. (I have no experience with this and have never read of or heard of this, so whether it works or works well enough for your purposes, I do not know, but I get ChrisPer's methodology and have taken it a couple of steps for you to give you a way to determine what you are looking for re the GS Customs):

1. The first measurement gives you the groove to groove measurement.

2. The second meaures the land to groove distance plus drill bit diameter. (The drill bit must lay in the groove.)

3. Subtract the drill bit diameter and you have just the land to groove distance.

4. Subtract the first measurement, the groove to groove measurement, and you will have a negative number which represents how deep one groove is.

5. Multiply the depth of one groove by two and you have the depth of two grooves.

6. Take the depth of two grooves, calculated in #5, and subtract it from the groove to groove diameter. This will give you what would be the land to land diameter for a rifle with an even number of lands and grooves.

So, you now have a facsimile of the land to land measurement from which to calculate the diameter of the shank of a bullet which will ride the lands, but not engrave - in theory, assuming that the lands and grooves measurements are uniform the length of the barrel and that the barrel is straight and the lands and grooves perfectly concentric.

I would guess that you would want the shank of the GS Customs a bit less (a couple of .001's?) in diameter than the facsimile land to land diameter of your bores.

Again, as I said, I am not familiar with ChrisPer's methodology, but at first blush nothing seems amiss with it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Jack,

Try this "translation" from Australian to American.

JPK

Very good JPK

500N-

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
tinker

I have found the only reliable way was a lead slug pushed all of the way through the barrels.

Interestingly, in all cases, the tighter part of the barrel
was always at the muzzle end.

Exactly.
That's what I mean.
Slug the thing with lead from the muzzles (and out the chambers) AND from the chambers (and out the muzzles)
Both ways.
The reason I go both directions is so that I can get 'feel' in both directions on both tubes, that's the best chance I'll get of finding a loose spot or ring in the bores.



Cheers
Tinker

JPK, 500N, A. Tinkerer,
Thanks men, for all your input!

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

The reason I go both directions is so that I can get 'feel' in both directions on both tubes, that's the best chance I'll get of finding a loose spot or ring in the bores.

Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

Totally agree.

You do get a "feel" for the bores and if their was a problem with them,
you would definitely feel it.

Luckily I haven't found one yet with a problem !!!!!! LOL

I would say the pictures answer your question in full, even if the penetration is partial. It looks like a correct fit for GS Custom bullets.

The bores are unlikely to be so out of tolerance that you would have a meaningfully different result elsewhere in the barrel. That much variation can be detected by a tight patch back run back and forth, and you would already be aware of it just from cleaning your rifle.


I'd load and shoot some.

I use a hard steel rod to drive a slug through the bore. Bevel the end so the corner of the rod can't touch the lands. I use the biggest trade size rod that will pass freely though the bore, 1/4, 5/16. etc. I've never damaged a bore using this method.

Dave