Have been reading posts and just curious if Merkel is a very sound double in 470 or 500. I've seen reasonable prices when compared to Searcy and Heym, I've handled them, fit and finish seems nice. Not sure about the Krieghoff and the safety, but the Merkel seems well balanced etc. Is there something about the Merkels that just doesn't feel or function right? Searcy looks as though the quality has come a long way in the past 6 or 7 years since I handled one at Cabela's and they are made in the states. I can understand them being popular in part because of construction and where they are made.

I would DEFINITELY own a Merkel over a Krieghoff and probably over the older Searcy PH model as well given the price difference on the street. Now, Searcy's new "Classic" has my attention but given that this weapon seems like it will be going for $12K plus....I have to ask if it is worth a minimum of 33% more than a Merkel? Hmmmm......maybe I should buy both and let my great grandkids figure out which will last longer when given proper care.

Also, you may not know that you have opened a bit of a "can of worms" here. Within the first few posts on this thread someone is going to mention that Merkel's are undesirable as they are made on their "shotgun action". Others will mention that Merkels come "off face" quickly. Personally, I don't think either issue would matter a bit as long as one stuck with the .470 or .500 rather than the higher pressure chamberings that Merkel offers. This, I believe, is Merkels only fault.

JMHO,

John

I have a Merkel 470 and can't ask for a better gun. Tried the Kreighof at SCI several years ago but was not convinced in my own mind I would ever adapt to the safety. If you are comfortable with it I would say they are equal.
Have only seen one Searcy and that was in Zimbabwe, and was not terrifically impressed. Cost wise I believe the Merkel is the best buy.

Four of my friends and I own Merkels in 470 and one in 500 and find them to be great guns that are very accurate.
We shoot these doubles quite often and have had no problems with them, but would recomend a front bead sight in lieu of the standard post (the post can be changed to a Recknagle 2.5mm bead).
A friend has a nice KRIEGHOFF 9.3x74 but we are having trouble regulating it.
I too am also interested in the new Searcy classic in 450/400.

I have a Merkel 470NE as well. The Merkel fit me well and I like the feel of the gun. I get expectional accuracy out of my handloads. If you are after a new DR find the one that fits you the best...I like the Merkel

Shattered a clay pigeon at 150 yds with my Krieghoff today. 1st shot, front trigger, right barrel

29 "charging" targets met their demise.

Between the two, there really isn't a choice. I've shot the Krieghoff quite a bit in 7X65R, .375 Flanged Magnum and .500/.416. They're very accurate, but the safety design is the most useless I've ever seen.

For a new double rifle under $20K, the Merkel offers the most value for your money in a large bore. They work OK, and the poor sights can be changed. The Merkel, Chapuis, Krieghoff, Heym and Searcy, all seem to shoot well enough but, to me, none of them handle acceptably well. The Heym is the best finished of the bunch, but I don't think that justifies it's price. From what I can see, the Merkels are as serviceable as the others, and are the cheapest. Go for it.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Merkel over the Krieghoff. As stated in this thread the Merkel is the best buy for your money. With that said spend a little more and get a Heym. They are far better than both the Merkel and Krieghoff.

I've shot Merkels in 9.3X74R, 470 and 500.

Just my opine here but the Merkel rifle in 500 is too light. First thing you need to do is ask yourself what kind of hunting you'll be doing with it.

If you wish to hunt a wide variety of game then get a smaller caliber.

The 9.3X74R is a good medium caliber over a wider variety of game. The 470 has probably the best resale value, but I've never purchased a rifle for resale! The 470 NE is the bouble rifle round all others are judged by.
The 500 is diffiantly a "Stopper". It has the recoil to go with it too!

Unlike some of the above, I think the Krieghoff safety system is a good one and all that is needed is practice in using it.

I own Krieghoff doubles and have never found them particularily difficult to operate. Because I'm left handed I have been shooting double shotguns, single shot rifles, Blaser R93 & K95 (Please don't throw stones, I like them. You can shoot what ever you want.) for most of my shooting career so the Krieghoff safety/cocking mechanism is very natural.

I have practiced "instinctive" shooting with it from a variety of carry positions, at various targets, and varying ranges. I would not consider myself endangered at all by this system. It has become natural to me. I have been in law enforcement for over 25 years and incorporated training techniques used in my profession and as a police firearms instructor to simulate the stress of actual field situations, including moving/"charging" targets.

Those who speak to it from only a short handling period on a show floor could benefit from some extended range time to actually see how it functions and works. And yes, they do get a little easier to move with use. Probably a function of both practiced muscle memory and breaking in the safety/cocking system.

Not everybody has to like it, buy it or use it. I do, I did, and I look forward to using it on my first Cape Buff trip in September.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
I would DEFINITELY own a Merkel over a Krieghoff and probably over the older Searcy PH model as well given the price difference on the street. Now, Searcy's new "Classic" has my attention but given that this weapon seems like it will be going for $12K plus....I have to ask if it is worth a minimum of 33% more than a Merkel? Hmmmm......maybe I should buy both and let my great grandkids figure out which will last longer when given proper care.

Also, you may not know that you have opened a bit of a "can of worms" here. Within the first few posts on this thread someone is going to mention that Merkel's are undesirable as they are made on their "shotgun action". Others will mention that Merkels come "off face" quickly. Personally, I don't think either issue would matter a bit as long as one stuck with the .470 or .500 rather than the higher pressure chamberings that Merkel offers. This, I believe, is Merkels only fault.

JMHO,

John

John is right about the sounds you will hear from those who have never owned either of the rifles.

First, lets set asside the notion that the Merkel is made on a shotgun action! The merkels are all made on the same action for the size of the chambering, both rifle, and shotgun. That doesn't mean the action is only a shotgun action. The actions are all hardened the same regardless what barrels will be placed on them. The actions are pleanty strong for the chamberings they are fitted with.

Secondly, lets talk about the coming off face, that all the competition likes to spread around. Lets try to find someone who has experienced an off face Merkel, regardless of chambering! I think you will be waiting a long time before you find a verafiable example. The old saw about the 375H&H, and 416 chambered Merkel doubles coming off face, may have some credability, but I doubt it does. I think the potentual for hot-roding those two cartridges exsists. What I mean by that is people who are drawn to that type of cartridge, and usually not double rifle people. They are usually bolt rifle people, who have the idea that they can hop up those two cartridges the way, they might in their bolt rifles. That is a mistake!

My problem with those two chamberings are not about the pressure causeing "OFF FACE" condition, but that they are rimless cartridges. IMO, the action is pleanty strong enough for them, as long as factory specs are maintained. I does no good to hot-rod any cartridge in a double anyway. It simply doesn't regulate if hot-roded.

Rusty is right about the 500NE Merkel, it is a bit light, but you will not notice that when shooting Cape Buffalo. Where this is a problem is with the amount of practice you will do! Even the 470NE, which weighs a few ounces more that the 500NE merkel, has a noticeable amount of recoil! Enough so that practice is not a lot of fun!

I own, and have owned several double rifles, and two of them are Merkels, a 140A Safari 470NE, and a 140E 9.3X74R, and I find no fault with either, and wouldn't trade either of them for a Krieghoff. That is not that a Krieghoff is not a quality rifle, they are, but I simply do not like the way they fit me, and am not inthused by the safety system.

The draw backs that are among all the rifles mentioned in this string, are price, most of all, and value for that price. Like 400 Nitro Express says, I don't think the fit, and finish justifies the price of the Heym, the safety system disqualifies the Krieghoff to some folks at any price, and others simply do not like the B.Searcy! IMO, if all these rifles were the same chambering, and the same price, I would choose the Heym, but $16K for an off the shelf Boxlock, is not justified, when you can have Butch build you a "CLASSIC" for $12K, made to fit you! As it is, the Merkels are the best deal for the price they are offered for, and there is no worry about their longivity, as they are as strong as any double made today!

I would predict if Merkel would offer their 140-A Safari, factory chambered for 450/400NE 3", and change out the 375 H&H to a 375 H&H FLANGED, they would sell a lot of doubles very quickly, and I'd be in line, for one of each, right up front,as soon as I found out they were available!

I have a Merkel in .500 NE and love it. I have no regrets what so ever about the purchase.

The rifle fits me better than I could hope and I'm not recoil sensitive and no not find the rifle unmanageable.

My .500 is hovering just over 10 lbs. With a few more ounces in it, it would probably be a better gun.

I have shot and handled Merkel and Krieghoff doubles.
After using Blaser R 93 rifles and a Blaser K 95 I would not have any problem with the Krieghoff combi cocking device. Between the two I would get the one I liked the best.

Don't listen to 400 grains. Hell, if it wasn't made my some guy in England a 100 plus years ago he doesn't think it is worth a shit. I own a Krieghoff and have shot Merkel, Chapuis, Heym and Searcy. I like them all for one reason or another, but find for me the combi-cocker of the Krieghoff offers the best feature for safety and convenience in a double for actual use in Africa. I have shot a good number of vintage doubles and like them alot. However, any of the new double will serve you well and certainly better than a vintage double that has been well used, made from inferior steel or is so over priced for what you get or want in a rifle.

Be a Philistine like most of us and buy the modern double that fits you the best. Leave the old guns to the esoteric types like 400 grains who finds it fun to research the place on the planet the iron ore used to produce the barrels of a gun was unearthed and what the ore cart driver's mother's maiden name was.

Perry

Perry,
So lets see if you buy a New Made Double you are a Philistine"....
A person smugly conventional, narrow,lacking culture, etc. [from Websters].
Or,
A smug, ignorant, especially middle class person who is held to be indifferent or antagonistic to artistic and cultural values. [American Heritage Dictionary].

Maybe so.
Still it is a long way from Bolt Rifle Trash.

I've been told the Searcy Classic is now priced at $15k, starting Feb.1, 2006.
This puts that gun squarely in the same price range as the Heym. I am interested in a buying a new double myself, and was seriously interested in the Searcy, but frankly for the same money I'll buy the Heym.

i had a earlier searcy that would double all the time & didn't seem to be fixable, traded it on a merkel & have never looked back.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
I've been told the Searcy Classic is now priced at $15k, starting Feb.1, 2006.

OUCH ! That's gonna be a tough sell....twice the price of what I've seen lightly used Merkel's selling for? Maybe I am too much of a philistine to know the difference.

Best,

John

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by John S:
I've been told the Searcy Classic is now priced at $15k, starting Feb.1, 2006.



OUCH ! That's gonna be a tough sell....twice the price of what I've seen lightly used Merkel's selling for? Maybe I am too much of a philistine to know the difference.

Best,

John

Butch is still selling his PH for right around five figures. Some may not like the way they look, but damn if they don't get the job done!

I have looked at and handled all of them, and one day, I will own one, but FWIW, IMHO, the best fit and finish on any double in that price range is the Chapuis African PH I.

I have shot 3 different Chapuis 470's. All were very accurate. I mean very accurate.
I shot a Keieghoff 500/416. A soft and a solid touched at about 40 yards. I have shot a 470 Merkel and a 500 Merkel. Both shot very well.
I shot a 500 Searcy. It too shot very well.
All the New Made Doubles I have shot were plenty accurate and the rounds hit with the sights.
I have never known of a British double that could not be made to shoot with the sights, with some load development,. and I have helped several people develop loads for them.

The SECRET to double rifle shooting is: Buy a rifle that fits you, find the load it likes, then shoot a thousand rounds or so at deer, pigs, black bear, cactus, rocks, etc. THEN book an African Safari.
When you can handle your Double rifle like a 22 LR you are ready to go.

I have recently become interested in double rifles and I am contemplating about buying a Merkel 140.2.1 in 470NE.
The rifle in question is second hand, but appears as unused. According to the seller it has been fired about 40 rounds through it.
It is equipped with a Zeiss 1,5-4x22 in claw mounts.
Asking prize is about $7500.
What do you think? OK price?

Assuming the scope mount is from the factory and it shoots well and it fits you.....BUY IT, BUY IT, BUY IT ! For that money I would even tolerate the Disney style engraving that I believe exists on the model 2.1.

Best,

Jonh

I have not seen the rifle in person, just pictures.
I am going to talk with the guy tomorrow to get some more details and additional fotos.
Judging by the picturs i have seen it looks alright.
I have noticed that on the Merkel web page it has an suggested retail price of $11950 , Wats the going price new and second hand in the U.S
If I buy it, it`s going to be the most expencive gun in the vault.
I`m quite tempted, will make a nice addition to my 416Rigby (Brno 602,pop up peep sight. And 375 H&H, Sako Safari)

I bought/traded up to a Merkel in .470NE. It is very accurate. At 50 yards, the Federal TBS's from each barrel usually touch from cold barrels.

I like the fit and balance of the Merkel better than the other doubles I shouldered. And shouldering with my eyes closed, the sights come up aligned.

I also like the standard sights, but that's just because I'm used to shooting with similar sights on other rifles and pistols.

I think the $7,500 for a .470NE with scope and EAW mounts is a really good deal.

Steve

quote:

I have recently become interested in double rifles and I am contemplating about buying a Merkel 140.2.1 in 470NE.
The rifle in question is second hand, but appears as unused. According to the seller it has been fired about 40 rounds through it.
It is equipped with a Zeiss 1,5-4x22 in claw mounts.
Asking prize is about $7500.
What do you think? OK price?

Without hesitation, IF IT FITS YOU AND FEELS RIGHT TO YOU, BUY IT! That is a very good deal IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by PelleK:
I have recently become interested in double rifles and I am contemplating about buying a Merkel 140.2.1 in 470NE.
The rifle in question is second hand, but appears as unused. According to the seller it has been fired about 40 rounds through it.
It is equipped with a Zeiss 1,5-4x22 in claw mounts.
Asking prize is about $7500.
What do you think? OK price?

PelleK, I already have a 470 NE 140.2, and I say, if you don't want that rifle let me know where it is!

Thanks for all of the info, I just back after a few days of the flu. I may have to do my first buff hunt with my Winnie, but the next one might be ripe for a double. Luckily, my friend isn't pushing to go next year for buff, who knows I might keep the old truck for another year and then schedule the hunt after I can pick up a double. Still wish I had taken the plunge when I was single, although thankful I have a wife who understands a gun addiction. I told her I was not buying any guns this year(that was in January), she just smiled and nodded.....as we were at the gun counter yet another time filling out the paperwork a Winchester for my 8 month old daughter.

Thanks again guys, great information from experienced shooters.

For my money, I would come up with the difference and get a Heym. The difference between the quality of the Merkel's and the Krieghoff's and the Heym's is pretty stark, IMHO. I also believe that the Heym's will hold their value better long term.