Has anyone been able to improve the balance on their 470 Merkel? All the new guns come with some weight installed in the buttstock, correct? I think there has been some variation in the amount of weight there. Has anyone tried different weights? Or has a recoil reducer had the added benefit of balancing the gun better?

Showbart:
If you're looking to improve the balance for yourself, just hold the rifle at 'port arms', assuming the position of your hands won't change when you mount the gun. Then get someone to measure the exact mid-point of your hands. That should be the ideal balance point (...for you!). For shooters of normal build with a properly fitted rifle, this will probably be an inch or so in front of the hinge pin on average.

I should add that 'balance' is only half the issue. To get the best handling qualities, you need to consider weight distribution. The bulk of the weight should be 'between the hands'. This has been discussed pretty thoroughly in previous threads, I know. But it needs to be considered here because two 'wrongs' don't make a 'right'! If the gun is barrel-heavy, adding lead under the butt-pad might achieve perfect balance, but the firearm will then have even worse 'handling'.

A lively double must have both: proper 'balance' and correct weight distribution.

Having said all that, the rifle can almost certainly be made to balance better for you, by altering the butt-weight to move the balance-point dead-centre between your hands. You may even find that you prefer a slightly barrel-heavy feel, if you make a lot of static shots, ie from a hide. Play with it, by all means, but what suits one man may not be best for another.

Thx Marrakai. Don't have the gun yet. I ordered the 470 tho. Have handled a few, shot none. The toss up was about caliber too. The 500 Merkel balances fine for me but is light for the chambering. I think it's less than 10 1/2 lbs. 470 is the right weight, closer to 10 3/4 lbs, but a little muzzle heavy.

Gentlemen, I have two Merkels, one a 470NE 140-2,Safari, and the other a 140E 9.3X74R, and both ballance 1/2" forward of the hinge pin! Neither feels barrel heavy to me. The only thing not stock on them is both have recoil pads installed. Of course the average standard pull most often fits me well, and bot these rifles fit like a glove for me! I love Westley Richards double rifles, and they do , admittedly feel a tiny bit livelier, at least the ones with 28" barrels, but the 26" ones are about average amoung my rifles!

To me the 470NE Merkel feels better than the 500NE Merkel. The 500NE seems too barrel light to me! These things are different for different people, but they work well for me!

If Merkel would bring out a 9 pound 450/400 3" double, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!

Thx Mac. I always appreciate your posts. I was very torn not just between the cartridges themselves but how the Merkels presented in the 2 different chamberings. (FWIW I felt all along the Chapuis 470 was at best the same as the Merkel 470, maybe not as good). Whatever the stock lop is (14 3/8 no pad) the Merkel presents perfect for me. I hope to be the first kid on my rural mile to have a big bore Merkel ejector gun!

too much emphasis is placed on so called
" correct weights for double rifles "

the correct weight is what you can handle quickly and get the second shot off quickly and accurately.

this will be more weight for some and less weight for others , because recoil is a very personal thing. and that is what weight effects most.

the "gurus" who read something and believe the lord wrote it there are not prone to be confused by the realities.

they saw it in writing - it MUST be true.

so they postulate this truth for all others, without thinking. maybe that is where the problem really lies. the ability to think, or not.

get a rifle that feels good and that you can shoot . don't worry about what it weighs !

Last post written by a fellow who hasn't been on his feet tracking elephants for six or seven hours ten or fifteen or twenty days running.

I'm not a lightweight rifle fan but too much weight is worse than too little. More than a little truth to a posters signiture line which read, "gravity last forever but recoil only last for a moment", or something like that.

Mac, if Merkel would turn out that 9lb 450/400 I'd be right behind you, though I am not a huge fan of the cartridge. At 9lbs it would shine a heck of a lot more than when it is in its typical 10+ pound configuration.

For those who don't think a pound is a big deal, go for a LONG walk with a pipe filled with sand to weigh 10lbs, the do it again with the pipe filled to weigh 9lbs. (I'd say do it with a couple of rifles but who need to scare the timid)

JPK

I'd never buy a rifle overweight for caliber.

This should be for another post but all English DRs are not created equal in my eyes. As I learn, search and handle guns I was mildly suprised to find more than a little variation in qualities among the Brit makers. The best are the best, no doubt. I've now handled a few that didn't balance so well. Some that were quite muzzle heavy. Alot was said here recently too about the many 450/400's that hover around 11 lbs. This all sheds positive light on the entry level DRs.

My indecision has always been about 3 things;

Do I really NEED a 500NE over a 470NE? We talk about ammo availability because of the Federal loads but A-Square loads in 470 or 500 are the same price and alot less than the Federal. Recoil of the 500 is only an issue if the 10 lb 4oz Merkel 500 has poor 2nd shot time.

Is a Merkel 500NE too light (because the balance is very good) so as to affect good and fast shooting? (above)

I have found them slightly muzzle heavy but does the Merkel 470 balance WELL ENOUGH to put the 500 out of the running as my first DR. I'm not chest beating but I wanted the better killer.

This all is not moot as I ordered the 470 but could likely switch to the 500.

i took the weight out of my stock. for what i use a 470 for (ele and buff) i walk a lot and shoot a little. that extra pound of weight seems to add 100 by the end of the day. it really did little to change the balance of the rifle, and if it turns a bit muzzle heavy, that's fine with me because i shoot alot of heavy barrel rifles.as in most things there's much more imagination then there is fact

Makes me wonder now too about the weight in the 500's buttstock and what's it like with it removed. I know 577NitroExpress had a recoil reducer installed in his 500, as JJ at Champlin's said the 500 really needs it, exactly what that means I don't know. I think a factory weight was removed then.

jpk when i hunted elephants i always had a gunbearer - 1 1/2 steps in front of me.

no one who carries his own rifle will ever be fresher when the action starts.

esp at the end of the day

When was that Tomo?

I've read of the gun bearer thing, for example in Taylor's works. Might work for traversing ground but not when you are close or there are lots of elephants. Not possible to stay 1 1/2 steps from a fellow in some - maybe most - terrain and vegitation.

How bout some photos?

This wouldn't be practicle for today in my experience. So back to reasonable weight rifles. I've had my second rifle carried while I carry my double, but I'd feel naked without a rifle.

JPK

sO HOW 'BOUT THE PHOTOS?

Tommo
How long did it take to realize that keeping the Gun Bearer in front of you was a good idea..
AK

Photos?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Has anyone been able to improve the balance on their 470 Merkel? All the new guns come with some weight installed in the buttstock, correct? I think there has been some variation in the amount of weight there. Has anyone tried different weights? Or has a recoil reducer had the added benefit of balancing the gun better?

Showbart - you are correct, in that the Merkel comes with a weight in the butt stock; a lot of weight in fact.

The other obstacle to overcome is the barrels. The profile used by Merkel when they turn the blanks takes weight away from the breech end of the barrels and puts it out on the muzzle end. In turn, they have to put weight in the butt stock to get the gun to “balance.â€

When I say “balance†- think of two kids (of equal weight) sitting on a seesaw. Yes, it’s “balanced†insomuch that there is equal weight on both ends, but this “balance†comes at the expense of handling, as there is now too much weight on the extreme ends of the gun, and it feels like it when you handle the gun.

As you can’t put more weight on the action or the breech end of the barrels, you need to get weight as close to those points as you can. You’ll never be able to get 50% of the guns weight “between the handsâ€, and still maintain a desirable weight, but if you can live with a little muzzle-heavy, you can greatly improve the feel of the gun by taking the big weight out of the butt stock and moving it forward.

The two things you can do to move the weight forward – towards the receiver are:
1) Replace the big weight in the butt stock with a smaller weight. In 1†diameter hole in the stock, you can easily get 6-8 oz of lead at the extreme front end of the hole (the end closest to the receiver).
2) Add weight under the grip cap. You can get another 4-5 oz under there.

This will keep the weight about the same, but will move it forward – relative to the action – and help with that sluggish feeling in the butt-stock.

If you do it yourself, you’ll have to make a mold to pour the molten lead into, and then place the cast lead into the hole in the stock. Don’t try pouring molten lead directly into the wood – you’ll ruin your stock.

Under the grip cap, be careful not to intrude on the hole that the through-bolt goes through as you drill out the wood under the grip cap.

Epoxy this one under the grip cap in place. Use a wooden dowel to hold the one in the butt stock in place with screws in the end of the stock... If you need photos of how to do that, let me know and I can email them to you.

Thanks New_Guy (Chris?)!

Still makes me wonder if I shouldn't change my order to the 500 as nearly all this is moot as it balances better. Then the weight under the grip cap is an outstanding idea to add central weight seeing the drawback (ammo & resale aside) to the 500 is that it's too light.

Yes, it's Chris and you're welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Thanks New_Guy (Chris?)!

Still makes me wonder if I shouldn't change my order to the 500

Or buy this used Merkel from me and save yourself some money.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Yes, it's Chris and you're welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Thanks New_Guy (Chris?)!

Still makes me wonder if I shouldn't change my order to the 500

Or buy this used Merkel from me and save yourself some money.

Hey, somebody changed out Merkel's shit factory sights to what looks like a really nice set of express sights with folding moon bead on that one. Major improvement.

Just dig the mercury out of it's ass and you're ready to go.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Just dig the mercury out of it's ass and you're ready to go.

I think I should put that in the description!

I saw those sights. I love the big post on Merkels. I've spent almost 20 years shooting alot of military rifles so the factory post is fine by me. Factory beads are too small to see under pressure. I think the fixed Merkel rear just needs to be opened up. I'll have to see.

Chris, your site is bookmarked and I check it often. I HAD to have ejectors, so I ordered new.

Still Waiting for the photos of Tomo's safari with the gun bearers.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
jpk when i hunted elephants i always had a gunbearer - 1 1/2 steps in front of me.

no one who carries his own rifle will ever be fresher when the action starts.

esp at the end of the day

I don't get it. You previously stated that you had your .577 built to weigh 10.5 lbs so that it wouldn't tire you to carry it all day. You remember - the one you were trying to flog here a while back without much luck? If you always had it carried for you, why was there a need to have it built so ridiculously light for caliber? Maybe you've got your stories a little confused?


JPK, let up on the photo thing, will ya. Tomo has always said that he couldn't keep up with his ammo, and had to buy it all in Africa (I never knew .577 was available in every trading post from the Cape to Cairo). He probably lost the camera too.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

I think I get it, you build a 577 to 10 1/2lbs to keep your native gun bearer nice and fresh for an all day elephant tracking job just so you can take it from him and get HAMMERED by the recoil of that light easy to carry rifle that you didn't carry.

And save on overweight bagage by not packing ammo. Ingeneous!

JPK

STILL WAITING FOR PHOTOS.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
400,

I think I get it, you build a 577 to 10 1/2lbs to keep your native gun bearer nice and fresh for an all day elephant tracking job just so you can take it from him and get HAMMERED by the recoil of that light easy to carry rifle that you didn't carry.

And save on overweight bagage by not packing ammo. Ingeneous!

JPK

STILL WAITING FOR PHOTOS.

Gosh, why didn't the rest of us think of that! Methinks ol' Tomo has been HAMMERED insensible one too many times by that thing.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."