If I was lucky enough to have $75k for a 500NE DR, and I was looking at a 1920s Holland Royal, with no case, and a 2000-ish Westley Droplock, with case, what are the pros and cons of each aside from fit, finish, wood, how it shoots, etc?

And, no. I am not buying, but I know someone who might be.

Some like redheads some like blondes. I am sure you will get opinions to support both rifles. My $0.02 assuming that the rifles are both mechanically sound. I would not even blink or hesitate. I would take the pre-war Holland & Holland Royal. There are simply no finer rifles that have ever been built. They are regulated superbly, fitted to perfection and similar to the drop lock, the locks are removable. Today the metallurgy may be better, certain manufacturing techniques may exceed those of the past, but the craftsmanship and artisanship of a pre-war Holland & Holland Royal simply cannot be beat. And you cannot underestimate the historical value of holding that old Holland and being taken back to a different time and place. My guess would be that the Holland will also hold its value a little better too long term.

Either way I would highly recommend having both guns evaluated by a great gunsmith before plunking down that money. Hate to spend $75,000 on a gun to find out it's got cracks in the head of the stock. Then again if you can spend that much what's another $6k for a new stock. Another thing to check for is originality if it has those claims.

That or I could build you four droplock doubles.

I concur with Hunter Jines on this. Now if a guy asked which is better a Westley Richards droplock versus a Holland & Holland sidelock each made in 1930 it would be tough to decide. But a modern WR versus a pre-war Holland & Holland? No question, the old H & H.

My vote would be for the 1920’s Holland & Holland. Mike hit the nail on the head with his comments IMO. Also, there is something to be said for that fantastic stock design and handling of the 1920’s Holland & Holland.

For those of us that just can’t seem to bring ourselves to drop $75-$100K on a H&H (instead of dropping it on another hunt in Tanzania) there is a modern gun maker, that many of us know and love, who offers a double in their special model line with the special 1920’s Holland & Holland stock design.

I probably sing their praises a little too often so to not sound like a spokesperson or advertisement I will refrain from mentioning their Gleichamberg factory’s name. :0)

Shawn

Who ?

Heym ? Merkel ?

Morten

Heym

Morten

I would follow MJines advice.

Enviable position to be in.

However, a lovely, bolstered, hand detachable sidelock Royal....

I agree with Mike! Having said that, I lust for a Westley Richards droplock.

A well-known contributor once complained that a certain prestigious brand was inclined to come off face within 30 shots when made in the bigger calibres, blaming the lack of a third fastener.

Incredible as that sounds, I would bear it in mind when making my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I agree with Mike! Having said that, I lust for a Westley Richards droplock.

I also agree with Mike, for mike, but for me I would spend the 75K for three nice new Heyms in different chamberings!

...................................................................

A fine dilemma.

Pass me the WR DL

Given my druthers, I would take the Westley Richards every time. For me, nothing else has the sheer class and utility of a WR boxlock double with "hand-detachable" locks. Not to be a snob, but that is the correct terminology. "droplock" is an Americanism, invented by Lord knows whom.

I would have taken the Holland&Holland..

Oh, bollocks - just take them both.

Taht bullshit said, I'd reckon the H&H would hold its value forever, but if I wanted to use them, I'd handle both and choose.

I would get the new drop lock...

505ED

Rifles, automobiles, women…anything old over anything new.
Cal

For that money, I would buy a Verney Carron and two elephant hunts to go with it.

If pressed, I would take the WR.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
For that money, I would buy a Verney Carron and two elephant hunts to go with it.

If pressed, I would take the WR.

Totally agree

I am wondering what the heck it is with all this old iron thing ?


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

I am wondering what the heck it is with all this old iron thing ?

You have to taste fine scotch to appreciate the difference between fine scotch and rubbing alcohol . . . you have to experience a fine cigar to understand that not cigars are created equal . . . once you have owned a fine automobile it is impossible to go back to a Yugo . . .

To put it in double rifle terms, someone that has only ever owned a Sabatti may find it difficult to appreciate a Merkel, the Merkel owner may not appreciate a Verney Carron or a Heym, a Heym owner may never appreciate an English double . . . everyone tends to gauge these issues based on what they have owned . . . maybe they are being objective or maybe they are rationalizing, who knows.

If I found a 1920s H&H Royal in decent condition with good bores in 500 NE for 75k I would run not walk to buy it. If I found a 2000s Westley Droplock I would think it over but probably pass. The Royal is a much finer gun in a rare chambering.

Nothing against the WR, it's neat but not in the same league.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

I am wondering what the heck it is with all this old iron thing ?

You have to taste fine scotch to appreciate the difference between fine scotch and rubbing alcohol . . . you have to experience a fine cigar to understand that not cigars are created equal . . . once you have owned a fine automobile it is impossible to go back to a Yugo . . .

To put it in double rifle terms, someone that has only ever owned a Sabatti may find it difficult to appreciate a Merkel, the Merkel owner may not appreciate a Verney Carron or a Heym, a Heym owner may never appreciate an English double . . . everyone tends to gauge these issues based on what they have owned . . . maybe they are being objective or maybe they are rationalizing, who knows.

So Mike - if I visit Dallas next year you have to guide me to Champlins or similar to look at some good Yugo from HH ? Then you will be able to tell me the differences and reasons etc etc... Maybe I will be convinced ?


Morten

No one will have to tell you anything or even say a word to you . . . when you pick an old English double up and handle it, point it, open the action and close it, feel the balance . . . you will be convinced.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No one will have to tell you anything or even say a word to you . . . when you pick an old English double up and handle it, point it, open the action and close it, feel the balance . . . you will be convinced.

Not to mention the svelteness of a true splinter forearm instead of those abominable beavertail clubs that were put on the re-emerging, modern double rifle market to simulate the feel of over and under shotguns which many became familiar with as the only form of double gun readily accepted during the period the traditional DG double rifle market nearly disappeared due to the introduction of cheaply made 458 Win Mags!

But, I don't hold a strong opinion on it or anything!



Funny how those modern double rifle makers are slowly but surely modifying their designs to mimic the old English doubles!

Absolutely the H&H over the newer WR. However, if I were to have a new DR crafted today I would not hesitate to choose the WR drop-lock over all others with price being a decided factor for fit/finish/quality. Can't justify the cost of a H&H or Purdey when a new WR drop-lock is about half the price. Just my 2 cents.

Dutch

That is a damn good point Mike. It is funny, if I was to order a bespoke English gun today, I would much prefer the Westley Richards over a current manufacture Holland & Holland. The current manufacture Holland & Holland's just do have the same quality look and feel as the older Holland's.

Agreed, don't think any firearm today has the feel of a pre-war English double.

Dutch

Will

As you hear the echo, that era of Holland's seems to be a benchmark. Although you can see it, if you have shot many SxS, whether shotgun or rifle, it will be your hands that speak to you. The current H&H doesn't feel the same as Mike said above.
The Webley actioned box lock double rifles, both the PHV-1 and the A&WC of that same time frame are overall the best feeling as a group to me. That balance and feel are what put sights where they need to be in a hurry and that is what a double rifle is about for me.

We can say it is a question of fit, but I wonder why with so many different individual builds (people), this era of rifles remain very popular. And I would stretch that to say that the more experienced a person becomes with the shooting and hunting of an open sighted double the more likely they are to be of this opinion.

I have a pre-war H&H Royal (built in 1906) and had a pre-war Westley Richards box lock (not a drop lock).

I was able to handle and compare them at the same time. To me the H&H handles like a sports car, where the WR handled more like a nice truck (I like trucks and that's what I drive).

I got exactly what I paid for the WR when I let it go and I know I can actually make money on the pre-war H&H Royal if I decide to let it go.

Assuming the bores are good, give me the H&H. I really like Westley guns but a Royal from that vintage is something special

There is a book titled "A Fine Italian Hand"
It would do many good if they were to read it but then again, some are beyond recognizing the very subtle differences in quality.

I know it is not popular on this site to crave the English over others, but that subtle differences make the difference (to me). I have seen very few German guns that have the "fine hand" of the English and not all English guns are quality. Some will never see it. Just like a good cigar, scotch, car or painting, that level of execution is not discernible to everyone. I am happy I fall under this group when it comes to wine. I enjoy many cheaper wines while some others will not drink them. Watches are the same. A quartz watch keeps better time than almost any mechanical watch which costs a thousand times as much. But admire that movement !
I have two older BMW's, one is a 528 the other an M5, both he same body style. My wife says they drive the same except the M5 is faster. She can not appreciate the handling or feel of the M. Ignorance is bliss...

Well, just took possession of a H&H 16 bore paradox hammer top-lever and it feels so sweet. Will try to get some pics. You can just taste that pre-war feel.

Dutch

Cal, I know you are not partial to the top-lever hammer guns but I would bet you would like this one!


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No one will have to tell you anything or even say a word to you . . . when you pick an old English double up and handle it, point it, open the action and close it, feel the balance . . . you will be convinced.

Vintage gun. A pre war H&H royal in .500. What more do you need?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Cal, I know you are not partial to the top-lever hammer guns but I would bet you would like this one!


Dutch

Yes, I would! A work of art.
Cal

Dutch,
what of velocity is the 16ga paradox loading? 1050, 1200? I had a magnum 12ga regulated for the 1500FPS load. That thing killed on both ends, just plain brutal.
Steve

I would take the Royal in a heartbeat.

So Will, when do you plan on telling us what decision your friend ultimately made . . . please do not tell us that he decided to buy a Blaser S-2 on close out.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So Will, when do you plan on telling us what decision your friend ultimately made . . . please do not tell us that he decided to buy a Blaser S-2 on close out.

No money has changed hands and the talks continue. However, I provided a bit of misinformation in the OP. It turns out the Holland is a 500-465 rather than a 500NE.