I have lowered the price AGAIN on my Pedersoli 45-70 DR. This is way cheap for a like new double. Listed as "Guns for Sale". If it doesn't sell at this price...I'm keeping it!!!
Thanks, ND

I can't believe someone hasn't jumped on this! Mine cost me a bit more than that. Well made, good shooting. Great price. Someone will enjoy!!
Rick

Rick,
Thanks for the support. I am shocked that I'm not beating the buyers away at my price. I'm way under the going rate.
People are buying those Russian/Remingtons like crazy for $1000 and then rebuilding them?

Are people not familiar with the Pedersoli Kodiak? This is a real DR, with soldered barrels...no plastic or jack screws...accurate...proofed for "Garrett" loads...MacKool's in Tulsa has rechambered many of them to 450#2 with great regulation.
If it doesn't sell at this price, I'm keeping it...having it bored to 450#2...buying the 470NE that I'm raising money for anyway...and have 2 nice double rifles!!!
Now I'm thinking more clearly...
ND

Wish I had some extra bucks.
\
Keith

quote:

Are people not familiar with the Pedersoli Kodiak? This is a real DR, with soldered barrels...no plastic or jack screws...accurate...proofed for "Garrett" loads...

It sincerely isn't my intention to rain on anyone's parade, and I understand that you honestly believe this statement to be true, and I can understand why. I've heard some unscrupulous dealers make the claim, and it's certainly been made on the internet without refutation so many times that a lot of people just accept it as fact. It just flat isn't true. Pedersoli Kodiak .45/70 double rifles are NOT "proved for Garrett loads" - which are purportedly rated at 40,000 PSI.

Pedersoli double rifles are made in Italy, a CIP member country. CIP standards there are LAW, not industry guidelines. Manufacturers there don't prove their own products, nor do they have any control over proof standards. Pedersoli rifles are proved in the government proof house in Gardone, V. T. to the legally required (CIP) standard for the cartridge designated. CIP does not recognize a special standard for "modern levergun" .45/70 ammo. CIP's maximum permissible operating pressure (MAP or PTMAX) for ANY .45/70 is 2000 BAR/29,007 PSI. That means that a CIP PROOF cartridge (the violent overload that the proof house uses to see if they can wreck it) is required by law to develop a mean pressure of 2600 BAR/37,710 PSI (ptmax X 130%). Pedersoli .45/70s are proved to 29,000 PSI - standard velocity smokeless loads - not 40,000 PSI.

The manufacturer makes it clear. Direct from Pedersoli:

QUOTE:

"C.I.P WARNING"

"Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units."

"The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method."

"The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037."

"The list below represents the maximum pressure to be developed by a commercial cartridge to be used with our guns, in the various calibers shown .IN NO CASE SHOULD THE CARTRIDGES EXCEED SUCH PRESSURE VALUES."


"Smokeless Powder Cartridges
Calibers
BAR/CUP – PSI
30-30 Win. 2800/40611
30-40 Krag 2850/41335
38-55 Win. 2150/31182
357 Mag. 3200/46411
45 Colt 1100/15945
45-70 Govt. 2000/29007
8x57 JRS 2900/42060
9,3x74R 3000/43511 "

Regular use of Garrett loads is worse than feeding it a steady diet of proof loads. Sure, they're strong rifles, and may stand up to that kind of abuse for a while, but they're neither intended, nor proved for it. The Pedersoli's are decent rifles for the money - about the cheapest double rifles worth having - but they're built for standard vel .45/70, not .450 Nitro Express. There's nothing wrong with that.

400,
I have not spoke with David Pedersoli nor dug that deep into their legal disclaimers. I didn't buy this rifle new, so that information didn't come with it. Although they do claim that their Trapdoor replicas should not use high pressure rounds, I have not seen this stated for the Kodiak. I guess some people just have a lot of time on their hands.
I guess I miss your purpose here?
What I do know is that numerous Pedersoli Kodiaks have been re-chambered 450#2 right here in Oklahoma and work great. This is first hand knowledge, because I have shot them. I spoke with a gentleman last week here on AR that had one rechambered to 450#2, by MacKool's in Tulsa Oklahoma (the place everybody keeps referring to)
Sold this rifle to his PH while in Africa...and it is still in service...killing animals, not people. So, I will go by what I have experienced and you can go by your interpretation of the data you found on your computor.
I'm sure that you have been a great help to my sale though...thanks for jumping in.
ND

When someone sincerely gives some pertinent and factual information, they should not be criticized for it. There are way too many uninformed opinions spouted as fact, and I find it refreshing to see some actual knowledge gained from actual research. Just sell your 45-70 as the gun that it really is. It is not a 450 NE, in my opinion!

ND,
No one has disputed that some of the rifles have been converted. The only information that was offered was that the rifle was proofed under CIP rules not Garrett ammo. Statistical information was given. Seems simple enough to me. Just my opine.

Dave,
Regarding Double rifles, Mark (AKA 400 Nitro Express) is the most knowledgable person most of us will ever meet. Believe me when I tell you that his words were not an attempt to prevent you from selling your double, but simply to clear up a common misconception on the strength of such rifles. I think you have placed a very competitive price on your rifle and that someone will soon take you up on your offer….I sure am tempted!

quote:

Believe me when I tell you that his words were not an attempt to prevent you from selling your double, but simply to clear up a common misconception on the strength of such rifles.

Precisely. I had hoped that I had made that clear. Instead of "strength of such rifles", I would use the words "proof standard of such rifles" though.

quote:

I spoke with a gentleman last week here on AR that had one rechambered to 450#2, by MacKool's in Tulsa Oklahoma (the place everybody keeps referring to)
Sold this rifle to his PH while in Africa...and it is still in service...killing animals, not people.

Ah. I see you spoke to PWN. I remember that rifle well. Perry (PWN), MacD37, Rusty, and I co-founded the Double Rifle Shooter's Society years ago. That rifle was still a .45/70 when I met Perry. Can't remember if I shot it after he rechambered it or not. I know it wasn't long after he did that he took it off to Africa and "lost it down a warthog hole", to use his words.

Although I have heard of these rifles getting their chambers reamed out to the 450no2NE chamber size, I have yet to see one (I will freely accept that some may exist), and I have yet to hear of one that regularly consumes full-gong 450no2NE ammunition.

Frankly, I have yet to hear of one that's been shot with real-live Kynoch Factory 450no2NE ammunition.


It's important to distinguish between the act of making a rifle's chambers bigger from the process of successfully converting a rifle to a different caliber.

It's also important to distinguish a properly proofed rifle from one that has had it's chambers modified and not re-proofed.



Cheers
Tinker

Dave,

You have a great rifle at a more than fair price. 400Nitro has forgotten more about double rifles than I ever care to learn and everything that he posted is the absolute truth about these rifles. I knew the technical information when I decided to convert the one I owned. I did so being well aware of the risks and after consulting with my gunsmith. The one I owned has not blown up or shot loose yet, but could at an minute I suppose. The prudent should heed the information posted by 400Nitro even if I didn't. But hell, I swim immediately after eating, run with scissor, jump out of perfectly good airplanes, hunt really mean critters with handguns, drive a motorcycle far in excess of posted speed limits without a helmet and flirt with married red headed women. Some folks are adverse to risk and that is good...social security has to pay someone. I just like the juice from taking a chance once in a while.

Dave has a great deal and I was certainly thinking about buying this rifle and will probably be sorry I didn't. I have owned two of them and they are wonderful entry level doubles and can be made into a DGR if a guy doesn't mind gambling a bit. Kinda like putting a big block in a Vega...it will fit and function but keeps things on the ragged edge.

Mark,

I shot Garret loads in the rifle when you, Rusty, Mac and I made our first hunt together. I used it and those loads to kill the coyote at about 75 yards when Rusty and I were hunting together the first mornin. You didn't shoot it after I converted it to 450NE#2. It was as bad as, if not worse than, Paul's 500 Merkle in the recoil department and would peg a person's fun meter quickly. I wish I would have kept that gun for shoots I have attended over the years.It would have been fun to cuss and discuss it at those events. However, guns are just tools and money to me and I will trade or sell them in a instantif the deal is a good one for me.

Perry

Perry:

quote:

But hell, I swim immediately after eating, run with scissor, jump out of perfectly good airplanes, hunt really mean critters with handguns, drive a motorcycle far in excess of posted speed limits without a helmet and flirt with married red headed women. Some folks are adverse to risk and that is good...social security has to pay someone. I just like the juice from taking a chance once in a while.

Well, of course. You're an Okie. That's normal for you guys.

Yeah, I remembered that you said you were using Garrett in it. I remember that mangy coyote. I'm sure you're right that I didn't shoot it after rechambering. I couldn't remember, and if it was that rough, I'm sure I would have.

Was it you that doubled Paul's .500 in Crowell? Donza, a visiting PH, doubled it again on the first DRSS trip to 4K. He did it by pulling the REAR trigger first. Whacked him so hard that his trigger finger bent the front trigger out of the guard! Bled like a pig.

Dave:

quote:

Kinda like putting a big block in a Vega...it will fit and function but keeps things on the ragged edge.

That was the point of my post. With double rifles, it's important to understand what you're dealing with. The proof standards of drop-down barrel actions are far more significant than those of "strong" action bolt rifles, because they don't have the margins.

If 400 tells you something you can go to the bank with it! However, as 400 says he would not use the word strength, in the place of "Proofed" ! "Proofed" means the rifle has been pressure tested to the point that is stamped on the flats by proof mark! That only means that it has been tested with enough pressure that it is safe with the factory ammo it is regulated with,by a safe margine, nothing more. The rifle may very well be strong enough to take the load that it is re-chambered for, but there is no "proof" that it will by physically re-proofing!

This may or may not mean anyting to anyone here, but I have one of these rifles, that was re-chambered to 458 RCBS. That is simply a wildcat cartridge by the origenal owner of RCBS. It is simply a long version of a 45-70, with a 2.75" case, and loaded with modern powders, for what is basiclly a modern 45-100 loaded considerably hotter! That rifle shows no sign of any pressure problem, not even overly flattened primers, or sticky extraction, and regulats perfectly. The pressures are no more than the ammo that the rifle was regulated with, which was Winchester Factory 400 gr 45-70 ammo, but the larger case capacity is enough larger, that the pressures stay low. This case also doesn't decrease the chamber wall at all, as the 450#2 NE does. That is not to say the 450#2 is too much for this rifle, just that it does decrease the chamber wall thickness!

It is an easy thing to do to add a working third fastener on this rifle if that worries anyone, but it isn't necessary with the 458 RCBS, but might be a hedge for the 450NE, or 450#2.

As Pwn375 says if you do this be advised that there is risk, but as is shown the same rifle can stand higher pressures in some cartridges than with others.

Example:

"Smokeless Powder Cartridges
Calibers
BAR/CUP – PSI
30-30 Win. 2800/40611*
30-40 Krag 2850/41335 *
38-55 Win. 2150/31182
357 Mag. 3200/46411 *
45 Colt 1100/15945
45-70 Govt. 2000/29007
8x57 JRS 2900/42060 *
9,3x74R 3000/43511 " *

You will notice that the pressures alowed in the cartridges with the * are much higher than the 45-70! This has to do with the fact that the wall thickness is much thicker for those chamberings, than with the 45-70, but the barrels are the same outside, because they all use the same action size. With the 450NE, and more so, with the 450#2 the walls are thinned, when rechamered from the 45-70. That is something to think about. I personally do not think it is a problem, especially if the doll's head third fastener is added, but that is the risk you take when you re-chamber this rifle to a larger case!

Gentlemen,
I would like to offer my deepest apologies to 400 Nitro Express and anyone else I have offended here. I read my post from this morning and was embarassed. I must have got up on the wrong side of the bed and let my 2 typing fingers over-run my a$$...guess with old age, I am getting grouchy.
I am not here to make enemies or to puff my chest out as a great knowledge on DR's. This forum is one of the greatest wealths of knowledge that I have found on guns and I am sure that 400 Nitro Express is a huge contributor. Guess I need to research people better before I attack. MacD37 helped educate me on the Pedersoli prior to my buying it...I used to go by "Timberghost" before my computer crashed. Mac, I think your great!
I will bow to the people here that have helped educate me and ask that you please disreguard my outburst.
400 Nitro Express: Again my deepest apologies!!!
ND

Hey Dave, check your PM's.

JPK

The Pedersoli is sold pending funds to JPK.
Man...Do I feel like an A$$!!!
Thanks to all, ND

Dave,

I'm glad your rifle sold and I wouldn't be too worked up over this thread. It all sorted itself out and you have manned up and made good with 400 Nitro Express IMO.

John

Dave,

Don't worry about 400Nitro. I have insulted him many time and he has thick skin. Besides, he is one of those dorks who own a double rifle and can't bring himself to take it to Africa.

Perry

Dave:

Don't worry about it in the slightest. You're a gentleman. Even when I'm careful, it seems I sometimes don't adequately convey my intent with the written word. Looks like I blew it again. I sincerely appreciate your courtesy. If you make to DSC, it'd be good to meet you. I'll most likely be around the Heym booth.

400 Nitro Express,
Thank you for accepting my apology. I was afraid that I really "pooped in my mess kit" when everyone jumped in. You must be a really upstanding guy, as you have many friends here that will stand with you. I'm sure that you have earned that support. I would hope that someday I could shake your hand.
Ok guys...Lets let this one die, so it will move into the archives and not be seen again...
Thanks to all, ND

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
Gentlemen,
I would like to offer my deepest apologies to 400 Nitro Express and anyone else I have offended here. I read my post from this morning and was embarassed. I must have got up on the wrong side of the bed and let my 2 typing fingers over-run my a$$...guess with old age, I am getting grouchy.
I am not here to make enemies or to puff my chest out as a great knowledge on DR's. This forum is one of the greatest wealths of knowledge that I have found on guns and I am sure that 400 Nitro Express is a huge contributor. Guess I need to research people better before I attack. MacD37 helped educate me on the Pedersoli prior to my buying it...I used to go by "Timberghost" before my computer crashed. Mac, I think your great!
I will bow to the people here that have helped educate me and ask that you please disreguard my outburst.
400 Nitro Express: Again my deepest apologies!!!
ND

Nitrodave, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who disagrees with me, that is their right! You owe no-one an appology if you disagree with what they tell you, only how you respond to their advice, because nobody is right all the time!

I have two one word responces to those who use my advice, and it turns out bad,"OOPS!" and when they do not take my advice and that turns out bad, "SUPRIZE!"

ND Glad your double sold. But by your registered date it looked like you joined just to sell. Then you tangled with a most knowledgeable fellow. I hope you are OK now and learn lots from these guys. I have been lurking for quite a while. And my double is one that causes these guys to wink at each other. But it was what I could afford. It does the job I ask of it until a more elegant double comes into my stable.

Packrat,
I believe it was around 2004 when I first visited this site. My handle used to be Timberghost...then a computor crash and numerous other family issues kept me away for some time. I didn't have thousands of posts, but maybe 200-300. I have participated in several threads in the past and purchased some rifles here as well. As my ad states, I have sold these guns in order to upgrade to a 470NE that I have negotiated with a member here on AR as well. This has been a goal of mine for the past 10 years or so and in the next couple of weeks, should finally become a reality. I have purchased the dies/brass/bullets for it, also here on AR.
Not trying to sell and skip out here...I need these experienced gentlemen to help guide me along.
I hope your quest for the double of your dreams materializes soon as well.
Best wishes,
ND

I remember the name. Hope you get the 470. It sounds like one I would like to play with. Later. Packy