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As a TIG welder, and a person who has worked on double rifles for years, for a good long time, I had misgivings about putting a double back on face by TIG welding hook and fitting to the hinge pin, because it is impossible to get a true even flush fitting between hook and pin using this tactic. JJ, at Champlin's firearms does such a TIG job only on British actions that have a built in hinge pin, not removable as most of them are, an understandable process, but he much prefers simply installing an oversized dia. hinge pin, to put gun back on face. I consider this the best solution, by far, and have done it myself. Jack Rowe used, and taught about another method, I think, using a shim machine fit into the hook. This is another method I think is worthy of use, and I have done that too. Now, my main reason for writing this: I have recently had ample opportunity to see and study TIG welding of hook, by two well known highly respected gunsmiths, and I must say that I wasn't impressed in the least by either of them; they were equally poorly well done, with one even done by one of the most highly respected combination smith/gunmaker in this country. He did it for an equally respected dealer in vintage doubles, prior to my buying gun. That dealer said that gun was now "back on face," by TIG welding hook, and he seemed more than happy with the job, saying that he has had a lot of these kinds of repairs done by this same man. This is what I found when examining the gun carefully: The gun was half on face, at the bottom section of the barrels against breech face, but at the top half, I was able to fit in a .006" shim stock that went half way down the breech. I don't call that "back on face." I am simply astounded at what some people pass off as legitimate gunsmithing work, and even more shocked at a gun dealer's satisfaction with such work. BEWARE OF SUCH SHODDY WORKMANSHIP! | ||
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Could not one machine the hook to take a machine replacement part then weld that in and fit it to the hinge pin. | |||
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John "Jack" Rowe, the now well known American, but British trained double gunmaker, trained as an action filer, I think, taught at our gunsmithing school classes a method of inserting a shim piece into hook, after hook is cut out to accommodate such piece. He told about the shim simply being soldered in place, A SYSTEM THAT WORKS EXTREMELY WELL. W. Ellis Brown, the gunsmith who wrote the book, "converting shotgun actions to double rifles," revised Rowe's system, by peening it in place, rather than soldering it in (all shown in his book), and IT WORKS EXTREMELY WELL TOO. Shimming, in this waay, OR installing a larger dia. hinge pin are the two most desirable methods, also done by JJ, a knowledgeable, skilled smith, at Champlin's too. | |||
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Tig welding is the amateur gunsmiths solution to the off face problem. 465H&H | |||
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Walt, the only time that this method is amateurish is when a novice welder is involved. Jack, the tig welding method is far superior to what you have exponded on in this thread. Jack Rowe and Brown don't us the tig method because they haven't the ability to tig the hook properly. Jack to put it bluntly, you need to step back and let your work judge you rather than your bullshit. | |||
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Butch1 I bow to your expertice in this matter and stand corrected. 465H&H | |||
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Butch Searcy, I don't know you from Adam, though I do know your long history in the business of making double rifles, so have a hard time with your "bluntness," as you call it. I was trying to express observations I have seen (observations that seem to upset you, for some reason), of some well liked experienced so-called gunsmiths doing a horrible job of TIG welding the hook of several double rifles, never mentioning a thing about my own welding (I am not in gun business at all, by the way, and do no gun TIG welding for anyone else), yet you seem to want to attack me. Is it because you support any and all gunsmiths, no matter what quality of work they put out, or that you reject the truth, or what? Perhaps you simply have anger issues? I am the first to say that TIG welding by novice welders has no place in gun work, yet it seems to have a big place, far too often. A guy on this site sent me a PM, saying that he is a long term professional TIG welder, and that he too has seen the same as I, so I am not the only one who has seen this. Good TIG welding has a place in gun work, but is seldom seen, at least by me, yet I have repeatedly seen double rifle hooks that were TIG welded by novice welders, some who say they are gunsmiths. Wonder why that upsets you so? Do you suspect that I am criticizing TIG welding from your firm?---not so, for, again, I have never seen any. No, I have never seen any TIG work done by your firm, so cannot say anything about it, nor did I did I say anything about it, yet you call what I have to say bullshit. You sound like an interesting guy, but not someone I would want to be around, if you have inclinations, such as you have shown here in your comment, quickly calling what I say "bullshit," when someone expresses what they have seen. If you don't like what I have to say, move on, and try to refrain yourself next time, and have a nice day, though. | |||
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Butch-
I just read through doubleriflejack's original post to this thread, and from what I see there he is describing a rifle that was worked on by some other guy, where the standing breech and the barrel breeches are not co-planar to the tune of .006" from action flats to the top of the standing breech, and that the other guy had 'put it back on face' with the 'tig method' Are you implying that doubleriflejack is either lying or isn't bright enough to evaluate the present condition of the rifle? ...or am I mis-reading your post? From what doubleriflejack wrote above in the original post, I'm seeing a botched job. Obviously without seeing the rifle myself, I can't evaluate it - but I don't see any good reason to call doubleriflejack a bullshitter. Can you clarify your comment please? Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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I once had a Tolley which had been rejointed with the "shim" method which seemed to work quite well. The best I can describe this repair to those who have not seen it is that it looks like a piece of tubing with an ID that matches the pin diameter which is let into the bearing surface of the hook. On this particular gun, the new piece was angled on each end so it could not come out except in a perfectly sideways fashion. It was probably soldered in place too but the amount of work to make such a repair looked to be quite extensive. I have no doubt that a properly tig welded hook could be ground to be virtually imperceptable and likely less work than fitting a shim such as my Tolley had. | |||
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I'm not Butch Searcy, nor do I mean to speak for him! He is quite capable of doing that from a position of expertise! Tinkerer, and DBJack I think what Butch is saying is what most here have been saying all along about BBJack's posts. In the opinions of most experienced double rifle folks here many of DBJacks opinions are simply that his opinions, and frankly most do not make sense, and seem to be opinions not based on most accepted double rifle maker's practices. Perhaps he is simply not getting it down in print the way he intends so that his meaning is not understood! I am guilty of that myself, and my posts are often not understood the way I meant them. No loss in most cases! I have to agree with DBJack's statement that there are a large number of well known gunsmiths, and gun writers as well who simply do not understand double rifle science at all yet perform practices, and make statements that are in a word "WRONG". This seems include DBJack's opinions in many cases. There is nothing wrong with ignorance,but staunch resistance to correcting it is not profitable, IMO! By definition that simply means a person has not been trained on a subject, not an insult on his intelligence. DBJack seems to take any opposite opinion as a personal insult, and that is not the case. The problem with this is many young starters take anything they read on a forum like this one to be fact, and we do a disservice to them by stating OPINION as FACT simply because we think it to be so! We all do that on occasion, but once shown the error, we do not get angry, but log it down in the minds file as a correction! I believe this is what Butch is calling BS, and I agree. DBJack calls those who do not do good work "POOR GUNSMITHS" and that I agree with and I suspect Butch does as well, but DBJack goes on to call the practice these POOR GUNSMITHS botched as not a proper practice. The practice of TIG welding of hooks is a very good practice if done properly by a pearson who knows what he is doing! PEENING of a double rifle hook is, in fact, poor practice, whether to hold a shim, or to tighten the off face condition ! There is nothing wrong with making statement of opinion that is absolutely incorrect, as long as it is labeled as "OPINION" not as indisputable FACT! To DBJack, Again I agree with you on some of what you have to say, but frankly find many of you opinions to be a little amateurish and naive. As well you posts are not easy to read because they look like one long sentence, with no paragraph structure. Don't get discouraged you've got lots of time to get a little more experience, by reading some of what many of the well versed folks here have to say over time instead of getting angry when anyone disagrees with something you write! Nobody knows everything, and no matter how old you get, if you keep an open mind you will learn something new every day here! So I guess what I'm stumbling in trying to say, don't get angry every time someone corrects something you have to say, but discuss it with them! You may find that is a far more pleasent passtime here! ..................Sorry if this responce offends anyone here, it is simply "MY OPINION", and not meant to ruffle feathers ! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Hummmm, let me see now: Tinkerer, (and several others commenting on previous posts) seem to understand perfectly, and appreciate what I posted, yet Mac and Butch Searcy do not seem to understand and appreciate what I posted, so my posting is faulty. Give me a break, and at least admit the truth Mac, you still are upset that I put you in your place on that previous disagreement we had. You guys need to grow up! | |||
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I assume that JJ's TIG welding skills allow him to do the kind of work such doubles deserve. If so, at least well-trained, skilled gunsmiths can use that technique to get a double properly on-face, correct? NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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doc i am sure that if he dont tig himself he will proberly know a very good welder that can do the initial work for him. the great thing about tig welding is that you can concentrate the heat with great accuracy and actually weld the hook without screwing with the brasing of the lumps, a lot of us use it instead of the dovetailing extra material into the hook area, because you can make it look great and the more cuts you make in the lumps the weaker they get. best peter | |||
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Thanks Peter. I've done some TIG on engine blocks but that's far from fine skilled work. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Mac- I definitely see your distinction between bad practice and bad execution. I wasn't looking at doubleriflejack's citation of a botched job through lenses colored with previous experiences with him - all I saw there was description of a botched job. These internet forum discussions can steer way off course when writing and composition styles don't mesh. I hope doubleriflejack and mr searcy can find some kind of common ground in this discussion without friction - then again, I'm not claiming to have been present to any previous rapport between them! As someone who can honestly say he's a qualified welder, and highly proficient on a TIG machine, I know for double damn sure a few things... -one, that I'm sure that by way of the process it's possible to precisely deposit filler material on the hook(s) of a rifle. -two, that there's more ways to screw it up than there are ways to do it right -three, that there's a lot more to the job of re-setting a hook than simply putting metal on the bearing surface (but it's just as important as the part where you need to remove some of it)!! There's more to putting a rifle on face than simply welding a hook (and there's a lot more to TIG welding than simply owning a TIG welding machine!!). Any way it goes, I'm not in the business of selling welds on double rifles. I wonder what the guy who sold the weld (and action work) that ended up on doubleriflejack's rifle would do when presented with the problem noted above! We may never know. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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doc if the engine block held up to the work and pressure, then that is skilled work, i did it a few times on my land rover td5 block and the reason why i did it a few times were that was what it took to get it right  best peter | |||
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CCMDoc: In recent exchange with JJ, at Champlin's firearms, I learned that, when putting gun back on face, he prefers to change hinge pin, installing a slightly larger dia. pin. Secondly, I learned that he only TIG welds hook on those British actions that have a built in, non removable, hinge pin (yes, some were made that way, with machined in hinge pin). He doesn't TIG weld hooks on doubles, where the hinge pin can be taken out and replaced. I have seen a lot of good, properly done, jobs, putting double gun correctly back on face, using these two technique, changing hinge pin or installing shim in hook, a method spoken about and taught in some gunsmithing schools, by John "Jack" Rowe, the highly respected British trained gun maker. I never did say that proper TIG welding the hook couldn't be done; I did say that I have never seen it done well, and I have seen a lot of them. Searcy says it can be done, and I trust that he is right. I have never seen any done on a Searcy, so cannot speak to that. I was trying to relate here, my experiences in what I have actually seen, especially recently by two well liked, respected smiths, horrible jobs in TIG welding hooks, in attempting to put double guns back on face. I never did say that changing pin or installing shim were the only ways it could be done, but I was saying that these two methods seem to be preferred by some very skilled smiths. Again, I did say that I simply have never seen hook properly TIG welded, and I have seen a great deal of them. Is my post now clearer to understand? | |||
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Yes Jack, thanks. I asked only because in your first post you said it is impossible to get a true even flush fitting between hook and pin using this tactic, and I didn't quite understand how that was true yet the double could be completely on-face. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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 You didn't put me anyplace! I just didn't see any benefit in responding to your rant! Nothing is gained by discussing anything with one who seemingly is a legeond in his own mind! You have a nice day now !  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, sorry I missed you at DSC... Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Thanks Antler, and we missed you at the 4K hunt as well! Lots of doubles down there to play with. Hope to see you next year. Did you get a good brown bear with your Heym this year? I'm thinking about coming up to Alaska this summer for some fishing, and maybe a Moose, if the cancer doesn't get me down again! ................See you! .............................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Sent you a PM, Mac. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Tig welding the hook; fitting to hinge pin, my impressions
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