For those of you reloading for your doubles, if the cannelure is in the right place, do you usually crimp your bullets in place or not?

I don't.

On my 470 and 500 yes a light crimp. On my 9.3X74R no. Bolt guns generally no.

I don't.

Butch said to do it --- so I do. It does not take long especially when you are only loading 20 rounds or so.

I don't.

Light crimp, heavy recoil can move the bullet in the cartridge that's in the other chamber. Every ammo manufacturer on the planet crimps their DR cartridges.

Dirk:

I am shooting a .500/.416 Krieghoff. The recoil is about like shooting a 22, well maybe a 22 long rifle, so I don't worry about the recoil

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Light crimp, heavy recoil can move the bullet in the cartridge that's in the other chamber. Every ammo manufacturer on the planet crimps their DR cartridges.

Yes, agree with that, plus the product gets shipped around, dropped, rides in trucks
and of course a manufacturer has to have standards that they have to maintain.


Individuals like us that re load are a different ball game. We often re load and go shoot.

I have not had a problem not crimping heavy recoiling cartridges.


Also, other methods exist for making sure the bullet is tight in the brass
- use good brass, resize carefully, resize using a slightly smaller diameter ball,
all assist in keeping good neck tension on the bullet without having to resort to crimping.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Light crimp, heavy recoil can move the bullet in the cartridge that's in the other chamber. Every ammo manufacturer on the planet crimps their DR cartridges.

Yes, agree with that, plus the product gets shipped around, dropped, rides in trucks
and of course a manufacturer has to have standards that they have to maintain.

Kind of like what happens when you go junting with your double rifle and its ammo.

And since you are the manufacturer and you want to maintain a standard, for consistent performance across all production, rather than crimp only "hunting ammo" and not "practice ammo", better to crimp all of the ammo you produce.

JPK

I was a firm believer in crimping all DR ammo until I had a lengthy discussion on this topic with 400 Nitro Express. He changed my mind and I now believe that the process when done correctly has some added advantages. However if not done correctly it can lead to problems and will Damage your rifle. Mark is confident that if you make sure the expander is the proper size adequate neck tension will prevent the bullet moving in the case. I still Crimp when loading for my 470NE however I do so lightly…..so I kind of took a hybrid approach.

I agree with dirk and JPK....light crimp. I've always had good luck....or made my own luck...by crimping Woodies in the groove and NF's in the appropriate "mini groove" to match the OAL from the Woodies. It ain't broke for me so I ain't fixin' it.
I had heard some folks make a case for slightly undersizing the expander ball for a firmer grip on the bullet and then not crimp. Hey, if that works, great.
Recoil of the big boys is substantial enough...especially in doubles if you reload the right and leave the left in for a couple of shots, that bullet w/o a crimp might just move a touch. And crimping....which I always do as a seperate operation after seating all the bullets...takes very little time.
To me...it's worth the time.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Crimp.

When I first got Krieghoff 500NE ,I noticed movement with recoil.

I had not done that with my older 450 NE, but it was a heavier rifle.

Garby,

To second your thinking, when I spoke with Mike at NF long ago, he told me to lightly crimp in the particular mini groove that gave one calibre in the case neck. But he made me promise that I would load and measure one cartridge and then leave it in the left barrel for four shots and them measure it again to ensure that the bullet hadn't moved.

With the Woodleighs, the crimp is there for a reason and works well.

Roscoe,

How can a proper crimp damage a double rifle? I can't think of a reason and would appreciate you passing on Mark's thoughts on the issue.

JPK

I do not crimp for single shots or doubles. Have never experienced any problems from not crimping rifle ammo.....

JPK,
A Prober crimp would cause problems. The issue is comes from from applying too heavy of a crimp and causing a slight bulge around the case neck. It is very easy to do. This bulge can prevent the case from fully dropping into the chamber which ultimately prevents the action from fully closing. I hate to speak for Mark however I believe if you search this topic you will find some of his comments. In short I don’t think there is much question as to the importance of keeping the bullet seated firmly in the case….we all know how critical this is especially in a double. Mark simply felt there was a better way to accomplish this task than relying on the roll crimp method. Maybe he will chime in and share his views.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
JPK,
Mark simply felt there was a better way to accomplish this task than relying on the roll crimp method. Maybe he will chime in and share his views.

All factory NE ammo is crimped. Various rifle manufacturers recommend a crimp.

I crimp all of my ammo but I don't use a roll crimp. I have a factory crimp die custom built by lee.

You guys who don't crimp are looking for trouble in a double rifle. In a single it isn't an issue. In a double the obvious danger is unseating your other bullet in recoil. It may not happen very often but it will happen eventually. A crimp eliminates this issue altogether. So why take the chance?

JPK....Mike and I had the same discussion after I told him what I was doing....actually had to get my specs on and count the "rings" for him. We must have been close because when I told him how uniform the velocities were and how well she shot (470), he said "wouldn't change a thing then..".

As far as applying TOO heavy a crimp...I agree....but one has to play a bit to find the sweetspot for a light crimp and go from there. Also, this obviously mandates that ALL CASES be uniformly trimmed to length.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
JPK,
Mark simply felt there was a better way to accomplish this task than relying on the roll crimp method. Maybe he will chime in and share his views.

All factory NE ammo is crimped. Various rifle manufacturers recommend a crimp.

I crimp all of my ammo but I don't use a roll crimp. I have a factory crimp die custom built by lee.

You guys who don't crimp are looking for trouble in a double rifle. In a single it isn't an issue. In a double the obvious danger is unseating your other bullet in recoil. It may not happen very often but it will happen eventually. A crimp eliminates this issue altogether. So why take the chance?

Surestrike:

I am going to leave this to some of the guys out there with more experience but I thought that one of the reasons that some of the old double rifle cartridges had such a long neck (i.e. 450/400) was to put sufficient purchase on the bullet to render crimping unnecessary. In addition, some bullets do not have cannelures. Finally, I am told that crimping can increase chamber pressure in some instances but up to 3,000 psi.

I've used a Lee's crimp for my .470 for the past 5 years and find it very effective. It's nice to have confidence that the bullets will stay true during a long and rough safari.

Guys,

I crimp everything I load for more than one reason.

1. I figure if I don't get carried away it at the least it doesn't hurt anything and my ammo won't fall apart.

2. I've read it's "the thing to do" in several places over the years. Not the least of which is Pages 73 to 79 of "Any shot you want". Not a bad read for you DR or DG guys.

3. My cronograph tests with several calibers (458 Win, 375 H&H, 300 Win., 7X57) show slightly more velocity (3 to 13 FPS) and lower velocity spreads, generally a 10 to 37 FPS reduction, but not always both together

Please note these numbers are from memory and done several years ago so I'm afraid I can't provide details, also I've never done any accuracy testing of "with verses without" a crimp.

And have you guys ever seen the bayonet crimps used on the older NE cartridges? Now that's a CRIMP!

For smaller bores I use the Lee factory crimp die. And from 458 up just a roll crimp. With the factory crimp in the larger (expensive) cases I get case mouth failures at 2 or 3 firings. Not good on the wallet

Roi

I crimp most of all my loads now....I never use to. However I have found I get SD's about half of what I get without......

In my 450/400 and 450 No2 I crimp if the bullet has a crimping groove.

I trim my brass after every firing, after resizing, however sometimes it has not stretched and nothing is removed.

I seat the bullet and trim in two seperate steps.

I do not crimp "too much".

I try every reload in the barrels when they are off the rifle and again with the rifle assembled.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Dirk:

I am shooting a .500/.416 Krieghoff. The recoil is about like shooting a 22, well maybe a 22 long rifle, so I don't worry about the recoil

Dave you know you don't feel much recoil while wearing a pink shirt and real men wear pink and don't crimp their DR ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
JPK,
Mark simply felt there was a better way to accomplish this task than relying on the roll crimp method. Maybe he will chime in and share his views.

All factory NE ammo is crimped. Various rifle manufacturers recommend a crimp.

I crimp all of my ammo but I don't use a roll crimp. I have a factory crimp die custom built by lee.

You guys who don't crimp are looking for trouble in a double rifle. In a single it isn't an issue. In a double the obvious danger is unseating your other bullet in recoil. It may not happen very often but it will happen eventually. A crimp eliminates this issue altogether. So why take the chance?

Surestrike:

I am going to leave this to some of the guys out there with more experience but I thought that one of the reasons that some of the old double rifle cartridges had such a long neck (i.e. 450/400) was to put sufficient purchase on the bullet to render crimping unnecessary. In addition, some bullets do not have cannelures. Finally, I am told that crimping can increase chamber pressure in some instances but up to 3,000 psi.

I don't think I've ever seen an original older NE case that didn't have a punch crimp in the neck.

As far as your worries about increased chamber pressure, if it was an issue the manufacturers wouldn't be crimping.

After my 2005 trip to Namibia I crimp everything. I had a few problems with the bullets being pushed back into the case. My groups went to crap. Missed a few gimme shots on game. The problem I had was getting in and out of truck or camp and loading and unloading continuously. This excessive handling is what I believe caused the bullets to be pushed in. It's not a matter of recoil for me but handleing issues. I missed a 40"+ gemsbok at about 150 yards from a rock solid rest(literally a big rock).

Brian:

What caliber were you using? I'm not saying it can't happen but I find it really hard to believe that your bullets would have been pushed into the case getting in and out of the truck or loading and unloading your rifle. I am assuming these were handloads. Did you clean all of the case lube out of the case neck before seating the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

I don't think I've ever seen an original older NE case that didn't have a punch crimp in the neck.

Surestrike,

FYI, that "punch crimp" is called a Bayonet crimp.

And boy they must REALLY raise the pressure.

Roi

Dave,
It was a 375 H&H. I had never seen it before but Don't need to take chance when I'm paying good money for a trip. It's not much more work to crimp.

quote:

Originally posted by 510wells:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

I don't think I've ever seen an original older NE case that didn't have a punch crimp in the neck.

Surestrike,

FYI, that "punch crimp" is called a Bayonet crimp.

And boy they must REALLY raise the pressure.

Roi

Bayonet crimp! That's the term I was looking for. Thank you..

I don`t crimp either on my 10 bore double..I too was told it wasn`t needed. So so far...its not been needed..

light crimp wound not hurt I use LEE crimp dies for all my handloads , as per LEE it works for me
anyone whom feels this is bullshit is a dickhead.