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Rather than highjack the original post by sfhr I’ll start this here to try to answer his question quoted above. Most here has read this before, and to them it will simply be  ……………….beating a dead horse, but may help sfhr, and some others who have been wondering about why double rifles are made the way they are and why it takes a lot of skill to make them worth owning !There are three things that one has a need to understand when dealing with double barreled rifles! The barrels are made to converge from chamber to muzzles for a reason, and that reason is so the barrels will shoot side-by-side, or parallel. Sounds silly, but true none the less. If the barrels were made perfectly side by side, they would always shoot wide, and get wider as they traveled, and would be useless past 5 feet! This convergence of the barrels is why most think this means that the shots from each barrel will cross the path of the other bullet at a “REGULATED” distance. This is not the case, and is misunderstood by many people who should know better, like well known gun writers. The makers make a confusing mistake in their description of their rifle to a potential buyer by stating “THIS RIFLE IS REGULATED TO POINT OF AIM AT 100 METERS”. This has only to do with the sights being cut to be on point of aim at that range, not that both barrels will hit the same spot at that range, but will actually hit side-by-side at that range, or any other range. One example of this mistaken idea was written recently by Brian Pearce in Rifle Magazine November 2110 issue page 64, on the Merkel custom grade double rifle. Quote; page70 “Merkel currently using Federal 500 gr Trophy bonded solids to regulate new rifles. Incidentally, the bullets are supposed to “CROSS” somewhere beyond 50 meters, and before 100 meters“. Then again on page 72 Quote: “ Depending on load, most bullets appeared to be “CROSSING” paths at something close to 100 yards, which is ideal on a dangerous game double rifle.“ and he totally disregarded the statement of the Merkel Gunsmith, stating, “ The Gunsmith at Merkel tells me that some rifles never cross, with some bullets remaining parallel at long distances, which works equally well. “ This article shows a total misunderstanding of the proper regulation of a double rifle, by the author of this article. The fact is a properly loaded double rifle will always shoot parallel. If the shots cross it is because the bullets are traveling too FAST, or the bullet is too light or both. If they shoot wide it is because the bullets are traveling too SLOW or the bullet is too heavy, or both. The reason the barrels have to be soldered converging is because the rifle will always recoil up, and away from the other barrel. This is so that by the time the bullet exits the muzzle it will be pointed at the place where the sights were pointed when the trigger was pulled. If you take the barrel set off the rifle, and clamp the lumps in a padded vice, with the sights aligned on the an aiming point on the target at the range engraved on the rear sight, then look through the barrels you will see that the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point that is on the LEFT, and LOW! The LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is on the RIGHT, and LOW. This, however, doesn’t mean the bullets will cross simply because the line of sight is crossing. This thing called BARREL TIME comes into play here. This is the time the bullet is traveling down the barrel before it exits the muzzle. While this BARREL TIME is taking place the barrels are moving from where they were pointing when the trigger was pulled till the bullet exits the muzzle. If the load is correct that barrel will be pointing at a place beside where the sights were looking when that trigger was pulled. You will see mention made to barrel harmonics in many cases when this is being described, but harmonics plays no part in a double rifle, because there are no harmonics in these barrels because they are tied solidly to the barrel next to them and to the wedges, and ribs as well. Harmonics plays a BIG part in a single barrel rifle, increasingly more the thinner the barrel because the barrel warps back and forth as the bullet travels down the bore. This is not the case with a double rifle. What does effect the double barrels is the load, and the recoil arch or MUZZLE FLIP, and is the reason the double rifle should never touch anything other than the shooter’s face, hands, and shoulder, and must be allowed to recoil as it does when held off hand or it will not regulate properly. Hope any of this makes sense to you! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | ||
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It does make sense and thank you for your continued efforts to explain it. ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS Into my heart on air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. A. E. Housman | |||
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Mac Thanks for explaining that. Can you help with this one? Why do we park a car in a driveway, and drive a car on a parkway? ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Mac, You are all wet. They are suppose to cross at 25 yards and then come back and cross again at 100 yards. Simple fissics.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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A good and accurate description Mac. I am of the paralell camp too. I regulate at 25 yds to begin with, and once the barrels shoot the spread of the bores at the breech, I will back up to 50 to prove they are shooting parallel. The spread should be the same or very very close to the same. I have a 230yd range behind my shop with a steel pig silouhet (18" tall at the shoulder). I call it the "Wilbur range", and have yet to have one of my doubles fail to put a round from each barrel on Wilbur's arse once the barrels shoot paralell. Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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Mac, that was a clear, concise and direct explanation! Mods; might I suggest this could be a sticky for this particular forum? It would make life a lot easier for any of us "newbs" to DR's. H. Cole Stage III, FRGS ISC(PJ), USN (Ret) "You do not have a right to an opinion. An opinion should be the result of careful thought, not an excuse for it." Harlan Ellison " War is God's way to teach Americans geography." Ambrose Bierce | |||
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This I somewhat doubt. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will you are most likely correct being the resident engineer, and I being just an old Texas hill country cowboy, who only understands horses, saddles and fence posts! ………………………………………………………………………………….  However my understanding of harmonics, as applied to a rifle barrel, is somewhat like the slow motion pictures of an arrow leaving a bow. The arrow shaft warps back and forth in waves along the shaft, with the arrowhead end moving back and forth pointing in every direction except the straight line to the target until it stabilizes. The single rifle barrel does much the same as the bullet passes down the bore. If the load is correct to set up the harmonics in the rifle barrel the muzzle will be pointing at the target when the bullet exits the muzzle. The thickness of the barrel directly effects where the harmonics places that muzzle when the bullet exits the muzzle. The old phrases “BUGGY WHIP BARREL” or “WHIPPY BARREL” are common when dealing with a very thin single barreled rifle. IMO, the double rifle barrel set is far stiffer than even a bull barrel on a single barreled rifle, therefore annihilating the effect, for all practical purposes, of any harmonics. Also IMO, the muzzle-flip, and/or recoil direction on firing only one barrel, coupled with the load, on a double rifle acts the same as harmonics in a single barreled rifle. I suppose you could call both HARMONICS, but I don’t! IMO they are two entirely different things! I could, however, be wrong, because I was once back in about 1942 Wait till I get my fox-hole dug!  ………………………..  .........................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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This is a serious statement,....How cool would it be to see a double rifle shot on ultra high speed film. I wonder if Disocvery channel would be interested? Might answer a lot of quesions....or create more. Been meaning to get Mike Rowe out to my shop for Dirty Jobs anyway... Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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Mac is one hundred percent accurate on all he mentions here, and everyone who has anything to do with doubles would do well to pay attention to what he had to say. Too many people are confused about these issues, no wonder, when we even have some "experts" writing wrong things in gun magazines. I read the magazine article that Mac mentions, and all I could do at the time was shake my head---Why aren't gun riters akrrate? | |||
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Mac Harmonics can not be fully discounted, they may not have a full weight in the equation. Think of how you check a double shotguns condition, you detach the barrels and hang them on your finger and give them and good solid rap, and listen to them ring, just like a bell. This is an indicator of a loose rib or hook etc. Do they ring or vibrate like a single barrel, definitely not, but that was never my contention. Is barrel time and recoil impulse and velocity of higher import, certainly. Nitro PS: Dig faster ! "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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I see what you mean, but i think they ring because they have come loose from the ribs, and/or wedges. In this condition they exibit harmonics, but not when fully attached. When fully attached to the ribs and wedges and the other barrel they exibit no harmonics! Right? I'm under gorund now! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Great post Mac, and you are right on. Harmonics may play a slight role in DR's, but not like they do in a single barrel gun. I wish I could have only written it as well. Mike JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Mac I should have been clearer in my post, usually they ring like a bell when all is well and tightly attached. A loose rib or hook will result in a buzz sound or they will not ring and sustain that bell like chime for long. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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Well put, Mac! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Like Nitro said, the barrels ring when everything is good and tight. Double barrels are not completely ridgid, they do flex, so harmonics are present. They probably account very little in the level of accuracy expected from a DR. A harmonic tuner on a double would be an interesting experiment. The ship I was stationed on in the Navy, USS Hue City ( CG-66 ) had 5" guns fore and aft. When fired, the whole ship went through harmoic oscilations. We could feel them travel from one end of the ship to the other, usually 3 or 4 cycles. It displaces 9600 tons, is 567 feet long with a 55 foot beam......and is more rigid than a bull barrel Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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Barrel Harmonics is what reloading is all about trying to get you load to work at the same point in the vibration of the barrel every time. If you can find the sweet spot where you get length of case, bullet weight, off set from barrel lane's, powder charge all to work with the barrel you get the unproved performance we are looking for. now double that and you have twice the difficulty in toning a load for your rifle. Plus throw in heat to the equation and it is even more fun. if your idea of fun is pulling out your hair. NOT to mention the regulation of the barrels for point of impact with a double | |||
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PS you also have to contended with the barrel axis on a double. when loading for accuracy | |||
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Harmonics are there .If they ring that's because they are vibrating and therefore will have harmonics.Make a double with the Browning BOSS system , that will tell you !!  | |||
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There is a sound in a shotgun barrels that doesn't exist on double rifle barrels in both cases. To check a double rifle for loose ribs, and/or loose wedges one holds the barrles in one hand by the breech end, and rap the barrles about half way down the tubes with the other. The looseness is felt by the hand holding the barrels as a viberating, The viberating indicates harmonics, which shouldn't be there in a double rifle. If a double rifle is solid no vioberation will be felt. Certainly there is harmonics in any length of steel no matter what it is attached to, but the harmonics we are discussing here is harmonics that effects shooting, in that context double rifles do not have harmonics, unless something is loose! "THEN" it effects the regulation of the barrels, and shot placement on the target. Harmonics ALWAYS effects the shot placement on a single barreled rifle, more or less depending on the diameter of the barrel. As I stated in my first post, " You will see mention made to barrel harmonics in many cases when this is being described, but harmonics plays no part in a double rifle, because there are no harmonics in these barrels because they are tied solidly to the barrel next to them and to the wedges, and ribs as well." ..........And! " the double rifle barrel set is far stiffer than even a bull barrel on a single barreled rifle, therefore annihilating the effect, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, of any harmonics. Also IMO, the muzzle-flip, and/or recoil direction on firing only one barrel, coupled with the load, on a double rifle acts the same as harmonics in a single barreled rifle. I suppose you could call both HARMONICS, but I don’t!" You think you have headaches now with finding the load that shoots to the regulation in a double rifle, add the BOSS system, and you will need mophine to modify the pain! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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How long have you owned double rifles? 50 years or more? And you've never heard a perfectly tight set of DR barrels ring? I think you need a new hearing aid!  | |||
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.......................................................  HUH? What’s that ye say? Did I hear my stalker come in the door?   Where've you been? I'd begun to think someone in OZ got tired of your pontification, and shot you! Glad to see you survived it though!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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MacD37, Thank you for explaining the lack of harmonics in double rifle to me. I was mistaken in my assumption that even doubles vibrated due to pressure and rifling twist when the rifle is fired. i did not realize the barrels where to stiff to vibrate. proof that your never to old to learn | |||
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ddrhook, the barrels do vibrate but it isn’t enough to effect the accuracy of the rifle! We are talking about a hunting rifle here that was designed to be fired off hand, not a bench rest 1000 yard target rifle. 5seventy is right, they do ring from harmonics as well when rapped with a soft hammer when solidly attached together, and buzz when seperated. It is just that IMO a better way of finding the looseness in a separated barrel set is through FEEL rather than sound. That may be that My hearing is just about gone, from a life time of shooting, and hearing war weapons going off next to my ears, along with 31 years of working on running jet engines! The first words of my every sentence in a conversation is “HUH?” you say something? In any event the harmonics in a solid double rifle do not interfere with the shot placement on the target, and all working up of loads needs to center around the barrel time, and the amount of recoil muzzle flip when held properly. This is because the harmonics are not able to move the muzzle back and forth in rapid succession like it can a free barrel on a single barreled rifle. The effect is not worth arguing about because it is not a negative factor to accuracy in a double rifle like it is with a single barreled rifle. The KEY is you normally fire only one barrel at a time, which will result in proper regulation on the target for both barrels. If both barrels are fired truly simultaneously the shots will cross at very short range from the muzzles, because if truly simultaneous, one barrel’s recoil cancels out the other in the recoil flip, of both barrels and will hit high and crossed. This is not the case with an accidental doubling which is not a real doubling, but a very rapid ONE, TWO, firing of each barrel. This allows the flip of the first shot to be completed just as the second shot is fired. In this case, the so-called doubling is usually the finger firing the front trigger, accidentally hitting the back trigger under recoil, firing it a millisecond later and the second shot will usually be high, and off the POA. The first shot will almost always be on target. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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