Those of you who frequent the Big Bore Forum as well as here may have seen this post Calibers to hunt everything with backup

In my response for a 3-gun battery of doubles, I said I would choose:
240 H&H Flanged
9.3x74R
600 Nitro Express


The 240 H&H FL is on my list because it seems like a great small game - deer sized game choice; a double rifle appropriate form of 243/6mm Rem/240WBY.

My question to this esteemed group is:
Who if anyone currently offers a double in 240 H&H Flanged? If not that round, what else would you consider in the same vein?

Thanks

CCM,

Just curious here, How much time do you have behind a 600? I really am not poking or trying to start something here. A former well known and respected member here and I have spoke in detail about these things.

He has volumes of experience with 600NE and big bores in general. He has hung up the 600. Stating that it has buggered his equilibrium to the point where he has a difficult time flying.

I was near pulling the trigger as it were until that conversation.

Just curious?

Steve

I doubt anyone offers it. It is / was a PITA Cartridge as they didn't standardise the bore size so most need 6 mm bullets bumped up.

I would go 7x57R with light 7mm bullets and you have the option of heavier bullets if needed.

Brass is also readily available - or once you have some cases you won't need any more.

Re the 600, 450/400 - 500 and anything in between is alot more versatile than a 600 and can still do what a 600 does 99% of the time.

Just my HO

.

I am on the 5th reloading of the first 100 600 Overkill cases I have on hand. All but 10 shots with 900grain bullets loaded to over 2150fps and quite a few between 2300 and 2400fps. A bunch of 750-800 grain bullets at 2500-2786fps. I usually shoot 40 rounds in a session and fast enough you can't touch the barrel. You can ask the gun builder about a repair that needed to be made as a result of that much shooting in a short period of time.

So, nearly 500 rounds of 600 Overkill out of a sub 12lb bolt action. Well, let me be completely honest. The first few dozen were out of it when it weighed 13lbs. I had it lightened. And no, no muzzle brake.

Nothing special about me either. Anyone can do the same and my nephews line up to shoot it. Rob Garnick (Robgunbuilder) offers to teach people how to handle these and has the same experience as I - no big deal.

Bet you're right, not as much real time with a 600NE double. Only about 100 rounds through that over a few hours.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I doubt anyone offers it. It is / was a PITA Cartridge as they didn't standardise the bore size so most need 6 mm bullets bumped up.

I would go 7x57R with light 7mm bullets and you have the option of heavier bullets if needed.

Brass is also readily available - or once you have some cases you won't need any more.

Re the 600, 450/400 - 500 and anything in between is alot more versatile than a 600 and can still do what a 600 does 99% of the time.

Just my HO

.

Thanks 500N.

At first I did put the 7x57R for all of the reasons you mentioned but when I looked at my bolt list, I figured is try to match it a bit better.

To be honest, my .416 bolt can and has done it all from rabbits on up. It was just an exercise in fun "what ifs". As far as the 600 - no argument from me cause you're right. Same thoughts apply to most things in life.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I am on the 5th reloading of the first 100 600 Overkill cases I have on hand. All but 10 shots with 900grain bullets loaded to over 2150fps and quite a few between 2300 and 2400fps. A bunch of 750-800 grain bullets at 2500-2786fps. I usually shoot 40 rounds in a session and fast enough you can't touch the barrel. You can ask the gun builder about a repair that needed to be made as a result of that much shooting in a short period of time.

So, nearly 500 rounds of 600 Overkill out of a sub 12lb bolt action. Well, let me be completely honest. The first few dozen were out of it when it weighed 13lbs. I had it lightened. And no, no muzzle brake.

Nothing special about me either. Anyone can do the same and my nephews line up to shoot it. Rob Garnick (Robgunbuilder) offers to teach people how to handle these and has the same experience as I - no big deal.

Bet you're right, not as much real time with a 600NE double. Only about 100 rounds through that over a few hours.

Your more man than me, My 500NE is 10# and with a custom fitted stock. Even with it, you must think your way through every shot to shoot it properly.

Cane Rat has lots of time behind big bores and even he says the same.

Many here know Alister Norton, a Zambian PH who is a mate of mine, he was here in Jan. he says the same.

I have shot Mike Roden's (GMA) .585GMA. ONCE.

As far as being taught how to shoot these things, That IMO is like being taught how to be in an auto accident.

My hat is off to you sir.

Steve

Have you considered one of the 6.5mm rimmed cartridges? I don't have any personal experience with a 6.5 in a double, but I once owned a 6.5 Mauser bolt gun that shot well.

I've seen a number of drillings and combo guns in 6.5 so it must work fairly well in break actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Your more man than me, My 500NE is 10# and with a custom fitted stock. Even with it, you must think your way through every shot to shoot it properly.

Cane Rat has lots of time behind big bores and even he says the same.

Many here know Alister Norton, a Zambian PH who is a mate of mine, he was here in Jan. he says the same.

I have shot Mike Roden's (GMA) .585GMA. ONCE.

As far as being taught how to shoot these things, That IMO is like being taught how to be in an auto accident.

My hat is off to you sir.

Steve

Steve,
Thank for the compliment but I don't deserve any. As I said, I'm nothing special in terms of skills or abilities.

I bet you never think your way through a shot when you are taking it at game -at least not thinking about handling the recoil - and I bet you do damn well.

To me it's like boxing, hockey and football (all of which I have done - some more poorly than others). If you think about the hits, it definitely hurts. If you think about getting it done, you almost never feel the hits. And there are learned techniques for taking the hit in all of those games.

Auto accidents - gotta learn what to do when those occur as they do in auto racing. It's part of required instruction in racing school which I have taken and have taught as an instructor. Like you, I hope never toneed that knowledg or thsoe skills but they have pulled my ass out of the fire when I was spinning at 3 digit velocities at NHIS, WGI and LRP among others.

All I can say is that none of those sports are for everyone nor does it make anyone more of a "He-Man" to be a boxer, play hockey, football or enjoy shooting a 600OK. Listen, one of my partners is a 5 foot red headed woman who used to play Rugby in an otherwise all-man league. I sure as hell am not tough enough to do that and I steer clear of her when she is pissed off.
As I said in another thread and to reiterate Clint Eastwood's famous words as Dirty Harry "A man's gotta know his limitations ..." That sport and she in particular exceeds mine!

Be well and thanks Steve. One day we'll get together, you'll shoot my 600NE and 600 OK and say "Hey, that wasnt all that bad! Can I trake a few more shots?"

quote:

Originally posted by MACD:
Have you considered one of the 6.5mm rimmed cartridges? I don't have any personal experience with a 6.5 in a double, but I once owned a 6.5 Mauser bolt gun that shot well.

I've seen a number of drillings and combo guns in 6.5 so it must work fairly well in break actions.

I hadn't but am a big fan of the 6.5/264 in other cartridges. That thread was an exercise in "What ifs" and I pulled that 240 H&H FL out of the air for no other reason than it was similar to the bolt .243 calibers I had on the bottom of my list of three.

I agree, that sounds like a good choice as well though the 7x57R is seemingly more common and readily availble.

I had a double in 7X65R.
Take a look at that cartridge. It was/is pretty poular in European doubles.
Another choice could be the 275No.2 Rigby. In fact, there is a knockout Rigby boxlock on offer at Merz Antique Arms right now. Big bucks, but just about the perfect light double.

Paul, the 240 H&H may not be such a good choice for a DR. It is hotter than even the 240 Wby, so barrel life may not be great, if that's a concern. Much easier/cheaper to rebarrel a bolt rifle than a DR, for sure. Plus, the 240 is a long-range affair, not the bailiwick of a double rifle. I'd go for a 7x57R or something along those lines. Or an 8x75 RS would also be an awesome DR round if you wanted more horsepower.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Paul, the 240 H&H may not be such a good choice for a DR. It is hotter than even the 240 Wby, so barrel life may not be great, if that's a concern. Much easier/cheaper to rebarrel a bolt rifle than a DR, for sure. Plus, the 240 is a long-range affair, not the bailiwick of a double rifle. I'd go for a 7x57R or something along those lines. Or an 8x75 RS would also be an awesome DR round if you wanted more horsepower.

Hey Biebs,

All true and presently focused on paying for the 600NE and the elephant hunt. I think the Flanged 240 H&H is loaded down compared to their regular 240 but as you and others have said, both rather obscure.

The other caliber would be far more common and less controversial ... just like all my choices...

Superior ammunition makes them up, at least the flanged which I assume your referring to. As long as ammunition is available sounds like a neat option.

Thanks general. Yes the flanged version.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Your more man than me, My 500NE is 10# and with a custom fitted stock. Even with it, you must think your way through every shot to shoot it properly.

Cane Rat has lots of time behind big bores and even he says the same.

Many here know Alister Norton, a Zambian PH who is a mate of mine, he was here in Jan. he says the same.

I have shot Mike Roden's (GMA) .585GMA. ONCE.

As far as being taught how to shoot these things, That IMO is like being taught how to be in an auto accident.

My hat is off to you sir.

Steve

Steve,
Thank for the compliment but I don't deserve any. As I said, I'm nothing special in terms of skills or abilities.

I bet you never think your way through a shot when you are taking it at game -at least not thinking about handling the recoil - and I bet you do damn well.

To me it's like boxing, hockey and football (all of which I have done - some more poorly than others). If you think about the hits, it definitely hurts. If you think about getting it done, you almost never feel the hits. And there are learned techniques for taking the hit in all of those games.

Auto accidents - gotta learn what to do when those occur as they do in auto racing. It's part of required instruction in racing school which I have taken and have taught as an instructor. Like you, I hope never toneed that knowledg or thsoe skills but they have pulled my ass out of the fire when I was spinning at 3 digit velocities at NHIS, WGI and LRP among others.

All I can say is that none of those sports are for everyone nor does it make anyone more of a "He-Man" to be a boxer, play hockey, football or enjoy shooting a 600OK. Listen, one of my partners is a 5 foot red headed woman who used to play Rugby in an otherwise all-man league. I sure as hell am not tough enough to do that and I steer clear of her when she is pissed off.
As I said in another thread and to reiterate Clint Eastwood's famous words as Dirty Harry "A man's gotta know his limitations ..." That sport and she in particular exceeds mine!

Be well and thanks Steve. One day we'll get together, you'll shoot my 600NE and 600 OK and say "Hey, that wasnt all that bad! Can I trake a few more shots?"

As far as shooting at buffalo and jumbo's goes, yes....never feel or hear the shots....at all...not even a little bit. But your talkin' some serious range time there bud.

Steve

CCMDoc,

I like the .240 H&H and had an Interarms Mark X built in the belted version; smoking good looking rifle.

I also agree with the recommendation for the 7x65R. I have two of them I'd be willing to part with. One if a Merkel 140-1 and the other is a BRNO o/u. Great caliber, and makes a long range gun as well.

I also shoot an 8x75RS in a Merkel 160-1, and I love that caliber and the way it shoots. But it's alot more gun, on par with a .300mag.

Fun to dream. Mike

CCM:
Email me and I may be able to send you a photo or two of a pair of H&H Royals--one in .240 and the other in .600. I viewed and photographed them a few months ago but the photos were not of the quality needed for an upcoming book. Email through my web site as I don't know how to post photos on AR. An interesting study in the size of the two side by side.
Cheers,
Cal

I'll add to my first post by saying 7x57R or 7X65R, it shouldn't make much difference.

Not sure which cases are more readily available now, I would suggest maybe 7x65R.


I'll concur with an above poster, barrel life on the 240 is short.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I am on the 5th reloading of the first 100 600 Overkill cases I have on hand. All but 10 shots with 900grain bullets loaded to over 2150fps and quite a few between 2300 and 2400fps. A bunch of 750-800 grain bullets at 2500-2786fps. I usually shoot 40 rounds in a session and fast enough you can't touch the barrel. You can ask the gun builder about a repair that needed to be made as a result of that much shooting in a short period of time.

So, nearly 500 rounds of 600 Overkill out of a sub 12lb bolt action. Well, let me be completely honest. The first few dozen were out of it when it weighed 13lbs. I had it lightened. And no, no muzzle brake.

Nothing special about me either. Anyone can do the same and my nephews line up to shoot it. Rob Garnick (Robgunbuilder) offers to teach people how to handle these and has the same experience as I - no big deal.

Bet you're right, not as much real time with a 600NE double. Only about 100 rounds through that over a few hours.

Your more man than me, My 500NE is 10# and with a custom fitted stock. Even with it, you must think your way through every shot to shoot it properly.

Cane Rat has lots of time behind big bores and even he says the same.

Many here know Alister Norton, a Zambian PH who is a mate of mine, he was here in Jan. he says the same.

I have shot Mike Roden's (GMA) .585GMA. ONCE.

As far as being taught how to shoot these things, That IMO is like being taught how to be in an auto accident.

My hat is off to you sir.

Steve

Steve's .500 NE Armeria de Madrid at ten pounds is a handful and if anyone says they need not concentrate through the shot to avoid flinching with such a rifle they are either Superman or a liar and I don't know anyone around who wears a cape and is allergic to Kryptonite. My primary DG rifles are chambered to .458 Lott and .470 NE and while I believe both to be eminently shootable for most people once one moves up over .500 cal the rifles become much more difficult to handle. The former member Steve mentioned who has inner ear problems is a good friend of ours named Dan M. who used to post here as 500Grains before he was unfairly banned and he has as much big bore experience as anyone around and will tell you straight up that the over .500 bores are not pussycats and are limited in their utility due both to their weight and recoil. His experience with them has left him unable to travel by airplane as a result of the inner ear damage caused by their recoil.

Ok Cane Rat you're right.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Ok Cane Rat you're right.

Not right or wrong, just my opinion. Please don't take it that way, that's not how I meant it, perhaps I should have chosen my words differently. Besides, I shoot a .470 NE double which Mark Sullivan thinks is a lady's rifle, so what do I know anyway?

My hat is off to anyone who can shoot the really big stuff and shoot it well and for all I know you and others here can but I also know that most folks can't. When someone says they typically shoot 40 rounds of 900gr bullets at 2,150fps or more in a session so fast that you can't touch the barrel that does make me raise my eyebrows a bit, though. In a 12lb un-braked rifle that is something like 170+ ft-lbs of recoil or about 2 1/2 times what a .470 NE produces. Not saying it can't be done but the guy who can do it is more man than me, that's for sure. I know that for me it takes tremendous concentration and follow through when shooting anything bigger than a Lott. I can shoot them but not as well as I can shoot a .470 or a .450/.400 or a Lott, etc. I agree that proper shooting technique to handle recoil is essential, without it shooting even a .416 class rifle accurately is nearly impossible, but at a certain point simple physics takes over and recoil energy is recoil energy and no amount of technique can overcome it, at least not for me. I'm not recoil sensitive but I don't believe that I personally could any more learn to absorb 170 ft-lbs of recoil energy and think it is no big deal than I could learn to tolerate doubling my .470 on every shot, but that's just me and we all have different tolerance thresholds.

My hat is really off to someone who carry such a beast all day, I can't. I carried a 12 lb .450 Dakota on a hunt once and by the end of the second day I could feel it in my hips, I can't imagine lugging a 14 or 16 lb rifle. I no longer own any rifles that weigh more than 10 pounds, my VC .470 is 9 3/4 lbs and is perfect for me.

You have fine taste in .600 doubles, BTW!

Cane Rat, Now I know why you sold my that 375 H&H win bolt gun with the barrel that i had to attach a wheelbarrow wheel on the end to get around with!!! I still love it!!, regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Cane Rat, Now I know why you sold my that 375 H&H win bolt gun with the barrel that i had to attach a wheelbarrow wheel on the end to get around with!!! I still love it!!, regards, Joe

Glad to hear you are happy with it, Joe.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I am on the 5th reloading of the first 100 600 Overkill cases I have on hand. All but 10 shots with 900grain bullets loaded to over 2150fps and quite a few between 2300 and 2400fps. A bunch of 750-800 grain bullets at 2500-2786fps. I usually shoot 40 rounds in a session and fast enough you can't touch the barrel. You can ask the gun builder about a repair that needed to be made as a result of that much shooting in a short period of time.

So, nearly 500 rounds of 600 Overkill out of a sub 12lb bolt action. Well, let me be completely honest. The first few dozen were out of it when it weighed 13lbs. I had it lightened. And no, no muzzle brake.

Nothing special about me either. Anyone can do the same and my nephews line up to shoot it. Rob Garnick (Robgunbuilder) offers to teach people how to handle these and has the same experience as I - no big deal.

Bet you're right, not as much real time with a 600NE double. Only about 100 rounds through that over a few hours.

I don't usually raise the BS flag but you just pegged my bullshit meter.

What you are describing is a physical impossibility, no one is as much of a recoil sponge as you claim to be. 100 rounds of .600 Nitro in a couple of hours and 40 rounds of 600 Overkill at a sitting? Yeah, right.

Well Dark Continent, you must be correct, then.

CCMDOC
If you want a Double in the 240.
Ask Bailey Bradshaw he can make you one in his new falling block design.
Just my 2 cents.
Oh by the way the 600 OverKill was that Bieb's?
If so, he said he was shooting that rifle from a standing position 100 rounds a day.
Oh then he woke up.
Have a good Jumbo Hunt
Larry

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
CCMDOC
Oh by the way the 600 OverKill was that Bieb's?
If so, he said he was shooting that rifle from a standing position 100 rounds a day.
Oh then he woke up.
Larry

elk88101,

You misunderstood.

Biebs DRINKS 100 shots a day for every shot he takes with his 600OK.

One of my pet peeves has always been that nobody ever came out with a 243 Winchester with a flanged case, no other changes! A little 7.5- 8 pound, side-by-side double rifle with 24” barrels one in ten twist would be one of the best deer rifle ever built. Good, well regulated, iron sights with the standing sight files dead on at 100 yards, and two flip-ups one for 200 yards, and the other for 300 yards, and a quality Quick detach scope base and rings for a Trigicon 1-5 scope.

I’ve thought seriously of building one using the 307 Win simi-rimmed case sized in a 243 Win die so the case would simply be a simi-rimmed 243 Win for use in a double. Both the 243 Win and the 308 Win are based on the same case, but I would rather have a truly “FLANGED case than the simi-rimmed case for better extraction/ejection in a double.
The 243 Win is my all time favorite cartridge under 338 for North America , and with a rimmed case, in a double rifle it would be the nuts, for woods or cross canyon deer hunting.

With the flanged 243 Win, there is no worry about barrel life! I have a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1961MCA rifle chambered for 243 Win that has several thousand rounds of hot hand loads down the tube, and it will still print ¾ inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards all day. These barrels are cold hammer forged, rifled over a carbide mandrel, rather than being button rifled however, which increases barrel life somewhat.

Mac

Why not use 7x57R Cases and neck it down to .243/mm ?

I agree, it would make a great DR.


.

It is my understanding that Baileys double would work just as well with rimless cartridges as with flanged. Just have Bailey build one in 243 or for real fun a 240 Weatherby.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
It is my understanding that Baileys double would work just as well with rimless cartridges as with flanged. Just have Bailey build one in 243 or for real fun a 240 Weatherby.

SSR

The above is absolutely true, and I can get a conventional S/S double rifle chambered for the rimless 243 Win, but regardless of type, I simply will not buy a double rifle chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge.

The 7X57 rimmed would work, but would have to be necked down and fire formed in a 243 Win die for the proper shape. Then you could use the 7X57 rimmed shell holder, and a 243Win die to load it. Both cases are very similar in case capacity. 51.81 grs of water for the 243 WIN, and 53.91 grs of water for the 7X57 rimmed Mauser.

Chambers would be cut with 243 WIN reamer, and the rim portion cut by hand on the lathe.

The cases wouldn't be hard to make at all!

Mac,

just take those 7x57R cases and run them thru a 6mm Remington FL die and you are there. I ran some thru a 257 Roberts FL die several years ago on a whim. They had a nice taper to them, and would have been the cat's ass in a double.

Rich

Often wondered why there is not a rimmed 6mm with any popularity. A 6MM Rem rimmed would be a fun little double with serious capability.

Is it really just a matter of resizing 7X57R brass with a FL 6MM Rem die?

I won't build my doubles in non rimmed chamberings. Just FYI. Plenty of great rimmed cartridges.

quote:

origenally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac,just take those 7x57R cases and run them thru a 6mm Remington FL die and you are there. I ran some thru a 257 Roberts FL die several years ago on a whim. They had a nice taper to them, and would have been the cat's ass in a double.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Often wondered why there is not a rimmed 6mm with any popularity. A 6MM Rem rimmed would be a fun little double with serious capability.

Is it really just a matter of resizing 7X57R brass with a FL 6MM Rem die?

I won't build my doubles in non rimmed chamberings. Just FYI. Plenty of great rimmed cartridges.

This is easier I understand that,however I don't want a rimmed 6mm Remington. I have never liked the 6mm Rem, and I'm not alone in that opinion, because for every 6mm Rem rifles you see there are 100 243 Win rifles.

This may seem silly but I want a rimmed 243 Winchester, so I'm willing to go the extra steps to get it! Once you've made a couple hundred pieces of brass the rest is a snapp! Besides making custom wildcat brass is part of the fun of haveing such a firarm!

I did another wild cat back in the early 1960s that I named 243 Coyote! It was the 256 Win Mag necked down to .243 with no other changes in the case shape. The 75 gr Nosler spitzer out of a 1 in 10" barrel on a Martini Kadet rifle. That thing was a death ray on coyotes out to 200 yds. It would make a nice little double rifle on a strong 410 shotgun size action. I simply used a 6mm necking die cut off just below the neck portion, and Clymer made me a set of reamers and RCBS made dies for it.

Not trying to be argumentative, but the barrel life on the .240 H&H (.240 Apex) is quite good. It's the .244 H&H mag where barrel life is very short. When I had my .240 H&H built, I has a .243 caliber bore in the barrel instead of the .245 it originated with due to better availabilities of bullets.

I still like the 7x65R for a DR, both for ballistics and versatility. The 173gr. bullets do well out of my Merkel 140-1.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Not trying to be argumentative, but the barrel life on the .240 H&H (.240 Apex) is quite good. It's the .244 H&H mag where barrel life is very short. When I had my .240 H&H built, I has a .243 caliber bore in the barrel instead of the .245 it originated with due to better availabilities of bullets.

I still like the 7x65R for a DR, both for ballistics and versatility. The 173gr. bullets do well out of my Merkel 140-1.

Mike

hey Mike,

Glad to hear of your good experience.

I have actually been in contact with two reputable double builders and have said the same about the .243 bore preference.

In fact, last week I put a call out to RCBS to make sure that the expander plug for the dies I've ordered is for .243 rather than .245.

Thanks and stay well

Small bore doubles are so fun to shoot. I would like to see a resurgence of them being put out to the masses in droves from the best makers.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Not trying to be argumentative, but the barrel life on the .240 H&H (.240 Apex) is quite good. It's the .244 H&H mag where barrel life is very short. When I had my .240 H&H built, I has a .243 caliber bore in the barrel instead of the .245 it originated with due to better availabilities of bullets.

Mike

Mike

Why is it that all the 240's i've seen have well worn bores - both in Doubles and Bolt Actions ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by generalwar:
Small bore doubles are so fun to shoot. I would like to see a resurgence of them being put out to the masses in droves from the best makers.

I know a shameless gunmaker down in Texas that agrees with you!