Are O/U doubles less desirable for some reason?
Seems like most of the interest is in S x S (big bores).

Romance factor.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Romance factor.

That's one reason, but not the only one for those who use them for hunting dangerous game!

O/U doubles especially in non DG calibers (like the 9.3x74R) tend to cost less, and of course, get a lot more use in the USA. I have SxS doubles and an O/U double (in the above caliber) and I like them both. Purists will of course find reasons why the SxS is better! Having said that, the CZ in 458 Mag. was an O/U and plenty of folks would like to get one!
Peter.

the arc is a lot bigger/longer on an O/U, which makes it slower to reload.

Rich
DRSS

i dunno but i've got a few of each. the sxs has a different balance point than do the o/u. you can reload a sxs a bit faster because of the arc. my o/u's exhibit better accuracy and are more easily adaptable to things like scopes. at least my o/u tend to be lighter in weight than the sxs of today. similar in weight to some of the older british. sxs i believe are harder to regulate than o/u. i do thing fjold is correct in that nostalgia and romance are the biggest factors, but in the end it comes down to what you like and can afford.

Like most double rifle collectors I have both types, and use them both to some extent. However they were designed for different purposes, a fact that seems lost on most here!

If you look at the specs of both types one thing will become very clear to you. Less that 2% of the O/U double rifles are chambered for any cartridge larger than 9.3X74R, and less than 15% of the S/S double rifle are chambered for anything smaller than the 9.3X74R.

Additionally, a full 90 % of O/U double rifles are fitted with single, non-selective triggers, and auto-safeties, while a full 90% of the S/Ss are fitted with double triggers, and on chamberings above 9.3, are most times fitted with non-auto safeties.

Most O/Us are fitted for the mounting of a scope of some type with stocks that are best used with a scope, and not well designed for fast use with the iron sights, while the S/Ss are fitted with very well designed iron sights. Stocks better designed for the use of those Irons, and less useful for quick shooting with a scope.

The O/U is most times mechanically cocked on only the bottom barrel, with the top barrel being cocked by the recoil of firing the bottom barrel. Every hammerless S/S double rifle I have ever seen EXCEPT the Blaser cocks both barrels on opening, and most have double triggers so that you have an instant choice of the barrel you wish to fire, Example: soft in one barrel, and solid in the other. Above that the first barrel having a miss fire, or something breaking in the system for that barrel has absolutely no adverse effect on the other barrel. There are O/Us with double triggers, but they are rare, and a S/S with a single trigger is little better than an O/U with a single trigger!

Now! We come to the wide gap of the O/U vrs the S/S for fast re-loading in a tight spot. The gap is a factor but not as much as the configuration of the barrels, as apposed to the S/S configuration. ("8" vrs "00" )
The re-load cartridges placed between the fingers of the fore-hand allows the double rifle with S/S barrels to be re-loaded simultaneously
, with the weight of the bullets of those two cartridges naturally falling side by side to rest on top of the standing breech, with the bullets side by side, have only to place the bullets into the open chambers and release them and they slide home easily. With the O/U, however, the cartridge must be one above the other, and the natural weight of the bullets brings one down on top of the other making it hard to load both barrels simultaneously almost impossible! The cartridges are not rested on top of the standing breech, for one reason because they are usually round on an O/U, and because it would do no good anyway, because that wouldn't keep the bullet ends separate like the chambers. So the quickest way to re-load an O/U is one barrel at a time. Also requiring the shooter to take his eyes off the target twice as much, when milliseconds count!

The O/U is cheaper to build because it can be made by at least 80% programmed machine work, and virtually all O/Us are Mono-block, and term everyone finds to be a "no no" when discussing a S/S, a wrong opinion, in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with Mono-block barrel fitteing, but people are turned off by it on S?S but redily accept it on an O/U!

A properly set up double rifle for use on dangerous game is first and foremost a "SIDE BY SIDE" with very well cut Iron sights and fitted to the shooter so that when the rifle comes to the shoulder the sights are aligned. It must be fitted with two triggers, and non-auto safety. It makes no difference how hard either of the double rifle types are to regulate, that is the problem for the regulator at the factory, not the owner's. All the owner has to do is find the load that shoots to the regulation, and load a pile of ammo with that recipe and go hunting. The S/S double rifle can be fitted with facility for a scope for special purposes but it is not the primary sighting system for a DGR double. The O/U is most often set up for Scope as primary, and the irons are most times very rudimentary, and not well designed or rugged enough for primary sighting system.

The O/U is a basic design for hunting things like deer and hogs with scope sights and for running shots at non-dangerous game. The S/S double rifle is made for everything the O/U is designed for, with chamberings of all the plains game, but is the most often used for dangerous game, with the larger chamberings.

Certainly both can be used for dangerous game with proper chambering, and I would much rather have an O/U double with two triggers, and proper chambering for takeing on a close quarters fight than any bolt rifle, but My choice would still be a properly set up S/S for that persuit.

If the cost is the only thing that is important to you, then the O/U is for you! Even if you want to take on a Cape buffalo or two with it do your thing, but be advised you are not well armed with an O/U for that situation. For Plains game, and for for most things in North America, a scoped O/U chambered for is fine, and is about as quick deer rifle as one could ask for. Besides all that, it has more than one barrel! That alone makes it something to own! If you are buying the double rifle primarily for a DGR, then you need to re-think your choice, and buy a properly set up S/S double rifle chambered from 9.3X74R up, and preferably .400 cal and above!

Hold you fire till I'm through digging ............................

Only one thing to add to the above. A side by side recoils off-center. The right barrel one direction, the left another. Regulation is a fine art balancing the two to shoot to the same point of aim at all distances. An O/U recoils in the same plane with both barrels. So regulation isn't as painstaking. Hence the ability to machine-make so much of the finished product.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Only one thing to add to the above. A side by side recoils off-center. The right barrel one direction, the left another. Regulation is a fine art balancing the two to shoot to the same point of aim at all distances. An O/U recoils in the same plane with both barrels. So regulation isn't as painstaking. Hence the ability to machine-make so much of the finished product.

Triggergate, this post is not aimed at anyone in particular, I just used you post to illusatrete the fact that there are things about regulation that are not well understood by many people, who are very knoledgable about firearms of other types! This is to explain to those new to double rifles so they can avoid some of the missinformation that finds it way into print in the Gun rags, and on the internet.

The O/U is easier to build with mechines, but it still must be regulated as any double rifle, by HAND with trail and error!

Though the O/U recoils diferently than the S/S, that is true, but one barrel recoils different amount to the other on the O/U rifle compounding the regulation problem but in a different way than the S/S. One is as complex as the other, but for different reasons.

Regulation of a double rifle is not well understood even by many here who have owned, and hunted with them for years. The proper regulation is not to get the barrels to shoot to the same hole in the target at any distance. If both barrels are shooting one ragged hole at any distance then the loads are crossing at that distance, and will shoot wider the farther the bullets travel past that point. Proper regulation has the "CENTER" of each individual barrel's group shooting on it's own SIDE of point of aim at ALL distances. IOW paralell, on the S/S one by the side of the other, and paralell. On the O/U rifle one over the other

The S/S, as you said, recoils away from the barrel it is tied to by the wedges, but so does the O/U. The only difference is the S/S has a quirk that the O/U doesn't, but that is true of the O/U as well.

The S/S recoils UP, and away from the other barrel. RT barrel up, and to the right, and vice versa for the left barrel, however, the O/U recoils only up, but at fifferent amounts for the top and bottom barrels. This is because the bottom barrel is in line with the CG of the rifle,causeing less rise as it reoils back, and up. The top barrel being much more above the CG of the rifle recoils far more uppward than the bottom barrel. This difference between the recoil arch of each barrel presents it's own problems for proper regulation, though different, are just as complex as the regulation of the S/S. For some regulators more complex for the O/U.

The ease of building of the O/U with mechines is a real cost cutter, but it has nothing to do with the regulation of the rifle.

With the regulation of either type, it seems people cannot get away for the the rules of the single barrel rifle. The double rifle is not a single barrel rifle, and isn't supposed to hit exactly the same on the traget as the other barrel, but beside it for the S/S and one over the other for the O/U rifle, no matter the distance.

Everyone is confused by two statements useing the word "REGULATED"! #1 is the rifle is REGULATED for so and so ammo with so and so bullet, @ so and so velocity. This means somthing different form #2 sights are REGULATED for 50 mtrs, or 100 mtrs, or with severl flip-ups 150 mtrs, 200 mtrs, 300mtrs, and have no more to do with the REGULATION of the barrels other than that id where the sights are cut to be dead on at that distance, just like the iron sights on a single barrel rifle, and has nothing to do with where the rifle hits at any other range. I have seen many times people who should know better, make the statement that the double rifle with one satnding rear sight and multiple flip-ups for longer ranges were placed on the rifle for looks only! That is the stupidest statement I have ever read! The flip-ups are there for a reason, but only work if the load is a proper one that shoots properly to the regulation built into the rifle. If the load is so that both barrel hit the same hole at any distance, the those sights will not work past that distance. However if the load is proper, the barrels will shoot side by side, or over and under point of aim. If you look at thos flip-up sights you will notice that the verticle line from base of the sight to the bottom of the "V" are all in line with each other no matter the range on the particular flip up. If the rifle were designed to cross at any range the flip-up would certainly not work, or would be for only one barrel, but that is not the case. This misconception is caused by the fact that most people think a double rifle is regulated for the barrels to corss at a given distance, and that is not true!

Many gun rag writers, and well known gun smiths are guilty of passing the missinformation along, simply because they do not understand what the two uses of the word REGULATION mean.

Because the barrels have to be converging, most think the line of sight through the barrels is the same as the flight path of the bullets from those barrels, and that is not correct. The barrels have to converge so that the individual barrel will be poniting at a place that is 1/2 the distance between the barrels to it's own side of where the sights were aligned when the trigger was pulled.

When the bullet exits the muzzle the sights are no longer pointing where they were when the trigger was pulled, and neither is the barrel. With the rifle at rest, with the sights on the point of aim the RIGHT barrel will be pointing at a place on the target that is LEFT of point of aim, and LOW. The recoil of the rifle then moves the RIGHT barrel UP, and to the RIGHT, just enough so it is pointing at a place just RIGHT of point of aim at the same horrizonal level of where the sight was pointing when the trigger was pulled, and vice versa for the left barrel.

The time the bullet is traveling down the tube, the tube is moveing, and when the bullet exits the muzzle, if the load is proper, that barrel is pointing beside where the sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled. This is called Barrel time, and is the reason the barrel have to be converging, and why a double rifle be it O/U, or S/S, has to be allowed to recoil naturally as it is when fired off hand. Anything that retards, or exagerates the recoil arch destroys regulation. The properly loaded S/S is regulated to shoot side by side, no matter the distance.

The O/U rifle is the same in regard to the convergance, and the fact that the barrels are regulated to shoot One over the Other no matter the distance.

................................................. .............

Thanks for a very clear explaination !

Good word!!! and to think I merely went and sighted my guns in, learned to hit the little circle and went hunting!!!! What an idiot I've been!!!!

x

JonP,

don't be so hard on yourself. I think ignoramus is a better choice of words than idiot. If you were an ignormaus RE SxS VS o/u and read what Mac has to say carefully, you have learned something. If, on the other hand, you read what Mac put down here and still can't figure it out; then you are possibly an idiot. Pretty easy answer, eh? Cone to Houston in October and get to shoot them both.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the arc is a lot bigger/longer on an O/U, which makes it slower to reload.

Rich
DRSS

Rich, How much longer do you estimate for the time it take the barrels to swing further, a tenth of a second, 1/4 second?

I agree Mike! Well said!

MacD37,

In around 45 years of playing with and reading about guns I don't think I've ever come across so much information that I didn't know, plus a bit that I did, explained as clearly as that. The only thing missing now is an explanation of how I'm ever going to afford one!

Thanks

John

MAC I believe you are mistaken in your assumption that OU rifles only cock the bottom barrel on opening or closing.BOTH barrels are cocked but in the case of a single trigger gun equiped with a enertia block the recoil of the gun resets the single trigger to the second barrel.A properly set inertia block would make it impossible for the rifle to double.

I have a Heym O/U double. It has one trigger and shoots the bottom barrel first.

If I fire one shot, break the gun open, and close it it resets and again fires the bottom bbl first.

I have several skeet shotguns which do the same.
Peter.

Do this test 450.Put your snap caps in your gun and pull the trigger twice.If the guns snaps twice your gun has what is called mechanical triggers.If it will only snap once it has an enertia block.If that is the case then slap the butt of the rifle to simulate the recoil of the gun being fired . That should reset the block and the top barrel will then fire.

bearhunter, the triggers in the Heym 26 B are mechanical.

Does anyone have an Express Rifle with enertia triggers? I can not recall ever seeing one? I know shotguns do have them, however I've just never seen a rifle with them.

Rusty: My Merkel 8x57jrs is an O/U with a single non-selective trigger. The recoil resets the trigger for the second shot. Is that what you refer to as an "inertia" trigger. It is an Express model from Merkel 2020.
Bob S

My Italian made Renato has one,

when I shoot traploads in the 20 gauge barrel set it will not at times engage,

with the 9,3x74 barrels there is no such risk.

/Chris

Nearly all of the German / Austrian O/U double rifles I've seen had double triggers.

I've been curious about the new Merkel mentioned by Rojovin but I have'nt handeled one yet. I have a Italian 12 ga o/u with single mechanicle trigger and it seems OK for a shotgun but I don't think I would be happy with it on a rifle. For one reason I don't think the single trigger would allow for a set trigger (which I make use of on my rifles).

No doubt much of this is personal choice. I like the set trigger others would want articulatted triggers and others would want a single trigger.
I did have a problem with the rear trigger on my on my o/u. I was shooting one day with NE450#2 when I reloaded and closed the action. as soon as the top lever snapped closed the top barrel fired. I later found there was very little clearance between the rear trigger and the horn trigger gaurd and in fact the trgger was touching preventing the sear to completely engage. maybe the horn swelled with some humidity I don't know but it was an easy fix.

quote:

The barrels have to converge so that the individual barrel will be poniting at a place that is

Heym claims their barrels don't converge. How could this be? Such an arragement could not regulate with any loads.

Bob,
I should have remembered that when I shot yours.

Mine is double trigger.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...sp?hierarchyId=11891

This is the deal of the century if you want a O/U DR!!!

JW

quote:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...sp?hierarchyId=11891

This is the deal of the century if you want a O/U DR!!!

JW

I hope you are kidding....I just passed on one of these for less than $9K

quote:

I hope you are kidding....I just passed on one of these for less than $9K

Not kidding! Where is the gun for under 9K? - I'll buy it!

quote:

Originally posted by bearhunter762:
MAC I believe you are mistaken in your assumption that OU rifles only cock the bottom barrel on opening or closing.#1BOTH barrels are cocked but in the case of a single trigger gun equiped with a enertia block the recoil of the gun resets the single trigger to the second barrel.#2A properly set inertia block would make it impossible for the rifle to double.

#1 JWM you are correct that some over under double rifles, and shotguns do cock both barrels, and depend on the recoil of the first shot (bottom barrel) to set the trigger for the top barrel. This is not the case with all however! Regardless if the barrel is cocked, or the trigger set by the recoil the top barrel will not fire if a dud is experienced on the bottom barrel. I don't think the time to be removing a rifle from your shoulder to tamp the butt on one's hand to set the trigger, is when fending off a close quarters charge. Do you?
Now if the rifle is fitted with a mechanical trigger it will set it's self when the trigger is pulled again. That is far better than the enertia set trigger. Now if a single trigger is enertia, or mechanical, breaks in any way, you are left with a 10 pound club to fight a buffalo. That is the indictment of a single trigger no matter what rifle it is mounted on.

#2 Now, the enertia set trigger with a rifle that cocks both barrels, is not safe from a double discharge because of the inertia set trigger, if the sear has a fualty engagement on the top barrel, the jolting of the rifle, because of a dud in the bottom barrel, to set the trigger for the top barrel can still set it off.

In any event, a single trigger on a double rifle, be it O/U, or S/S, is not reccomended by this poster for a double rifle used for hunting dangerous game! A double rifle, even an O/U, that sets both strikers, and is fitted with a mechanical single trigger, is, IMO, far better than a bolt rifle of the same chambering. However I personally think the single trigger on a DGR double rifle is a bad event waiting to happen. An O/U double rifle with two triggers, that sets both strikers on opening is better yet. When you get down to the brass tacks, in a tight spot, the S/S double rifle, with two triggers, and non-auto safety. that cocks on opening is my choice, and is IMO the only choice, because no matter how an O/U double rifle is set up, it has some serious draw-backs in a tight fight for your life!

No matter how you like your barrels configured, or how many triggers you want on a double rifle, the choice is yours, and you are the one who takes the chance that is not necessary. So if the O/U single trigger double rifle floats your boat, I say SET SAIL!

.........................Good hunting, and good luck!......

Mac is it easier to get different bullet weights to regulate in o/u rifles ? Also how critical is velocity ?

quote:

Originally posted by bearhunter762:
Mac is it easier to get different bullet weights to regulate in o/u rifles ? Also how critical is velocity ?

Bullet weight, and speed are critical in either type double rifle. Both regulate the same way, one over the other, or side by side. I don't think either is more critical than the other in getting leghter bullets to regulate. The 75% rule is the same for either.

In my case no matter if a rifle is a double, single shot, drilling, or bolt rifle, I select the heaviest quality hunting bullet, or both soft or soild for the caliber I'm shooting, and shoot everything with that bullet, with the only difference being a soft or solid. It is my opinion the use of more than one weight, and/or speed of a bullet in any type rifle is a mistake. One never really learns to shoot his rifle if he uses lots of different loads!

Reading this - I think i'll order one of these and try it!

Express O/U Rifle