Ordinarily I like to heft a rifle, before buying it, to see if it "fits." I close my eyes, mount the rifle, and see if I am looking through the sights.

Unfortunately there aren't any doubles around here. Heym claims I can mail them 10 measurements and their rifle, built to these, will fit. But what about other brands or used ones? How do I ascertain, when ordering by mail, that the double rifle will fit?

I'm not too peculiar in the shape of my upper body. For instance my .458 Model 70 fits and all Weatherbies with scopes mounted low fit me.

BTW: I sort of favor Krieghoff because I like their cocking/safety thing and I've heard that it lets the trigger pull be more moderate, but I confess I have never, after two trips to Africa and killing DG, even held a double rifle in my hands.

Take the stock measurements off of your favorite SxS shotgun and you won't be too far off. Since removing wood is easier than adding it, maybe subtract an eith inch off the drop at comb and heel (making the stock taller and the drop less.) Be prepared to remove a bit of wood off of the comb and to alter the pitch.

Stock measurements you will want to know -
Length of pull to the front trigger
Drop at comb
Drop at heel
Cast off/on at comb
Cast off/on at heel and toe
Pitch at 24" from the breech face

With a short tang rifle you can bend in more or less cast to a point, I've been told 1/4"-3/8" so many times that I believe it.

LOP can be altered by changing pad, but anything over an inch of pad begins to look awkward.

It is easy to add drop, merely by removing some wood, but difficult and expensive to add it and make the rifle look good without restocking.

Pitch can be changed by altered by changing the angle of the butt and using a new pad, but keep in mind the LOP and 1" pad issue.

For a, say, $15k rifle, a plane ticket is cheap insurance to find out that you and the rifle go together or the can be mimimally altered to fit.

Good luck,

JPK

When I was helping Chris Sells of Heym USA, New Guy on here AR, at SCI in Reno this year, several people came by, that had been fitted, and recieved their Heym Double.

All of them were well pleased with the fit, and how the doubles shot.

What part of the World are you in?
There might be somebody close by, that you could meet and shoot a double.

If you are not pressed for time, then go to either the Dallas Safari Show, or to SCI next year and handle some doubles.

Indy, while there is no doubt that the best way to get a double is to have it "fitted", you still won't be able to feel the "balance". I have bought two doubles without trying them ie. through the mail. One was a K gun (500/416) which I have done nothing to. The other was an M.K. Owen which had a length of pull that was too long, but I knew this going in, and knew that it was easier to take wood off than to add it. I dearly love both guns, but, perhaps I am wallowing in ignorance never having handled a "real, well balanced double" such as is frequently touted on this forum. This could well be. I shoot Skeet, regularly and with some success, without having any of my guns "fitted" to me. I suspect that I would never win any championships without having this done, but I also suspect that even with a fitted gun, I would not win any championships! If the "typical" rifle or shotgun fits you reasonable well I would go for it, but get the measurments ie. LOP etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Peter.

Don't forget that with a second hand weapon you will typically get a three day inspection period. That isn't long enough, imo, but I haven't had any problems negotiating a longer inspection period. So if a gun seems close to the measurements that will work for you, you can arrange a conditional purchase.

BTW, for any second hand double rifle that is more than very recently made, you ought to have it inspected by an expert, like JJ Peroduea.

JPK

I f you can find a another rifle or shotgun including sxs or o/u that fits you perfectly I would notify the builder how their gun "measures" up to them.
Before I bought my Merkel I went nuts trying to find the measurements, I contact a local dealer and he wanted money for the catalog, I said you gotta be crazy a ten thousand dollar plus gun and no one wants to send out a catalog. I wrote to both the us distributor and factory which eventually sent out a catalog which did not have the stock measurements I was interested. The factory eventually did email me the measurement which lead to a sale, the gun fit like a glove.

When I had my Chapuis built I traced another shotgun that I thought fit me well and went with that.

The very best-fitting gun I have is a Kriegoff .470 that I bought sight unseen. Fits like a second skin.

I believe that most americans, like myself, are so UN-accustomed to bespoke firearms that all our lives we're trained ourselves to adapt to guns, not the other way around.

INDY,
Just sold my Krieghoff 500NE after 15 years, not because of the gun, still wish it were here.

The firing/saftey mechanism was the prime factor in the purchase.
You quickly adapt to moving the safety forward as you bring the gun up.
Utilizing the safety at the shoulder is more difficult.
The gun was accurate.(8 shots in a paper plate off hand at 75 yards)

The Heyms are excellent guns too and Chris will fit you well.

As to buying used and fit, the advice given by others in the thread has been spot on.
Find a knowledgeable inspector, use the three day inspection well, always ask to fire the weapon with factory ammo or ammo sent with the gun.
A gorgeous classic is useless as a hunt gun if it isn't regulated(yes,I found out the hard way)

Doubles are great, the little Chapuis 9.3 is a delight.
BTW,I never found the 500 to be excessive even on smaller game and the 9.3 kills effectively on big stuff.
If I were to buy new I would look hard at a 450/400.

I was in the same boat with no double rifles locally that i could handle... So after much research, i took a chance and bought a used Chapuis with a 3 day inspection... Except for the LOP, it fits me very good, if it didn't, i would have sent it back... I'll cut the stock and fit a new pad myself...

It seems to be a pretty good rifle, and i consider it to be a great buy for a guy like myself, who has always wanted a DR, but isn't loaded with $$$...

DM

I would follow JPKs instruction and get all the measurements. I was at a show this past Jan and I shouldered two doubles. One fit great and had the perfect LOP, the other was "way too short" in the LOP department, or so I THOUGHT. I later got the measurements from the dealer on both guns and the one that was "short" actually had the longer LOP. The problem with the one that felt short was the pitch! The "short" one had some serious negative pitch and made it very uncomfortable.

sounds like the firearms equivalent of getting a mailorder bride...

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
sounds like the firearms equivalent of getting a mailorder bride...

Rich
Buff Killer

It can be. So many believe that X or Y formula will lead to the "right" dimensions... What a croc of BS.

In truth, there are different styles of shooting. Tought by an English instructor and you might stand square to the target, requiring less LOP but more cast... Self tought American and you might stand more shoulder to and require more LOP and less cast... Neither is nessecarily "correct", though many will argue the point. Imo, English style with a shotgun is the better, but American style with a rifle allows for better shooting...

Some argue that bolt rifle dimensions should equal double rifle dimensions. To me, if you ewant to shoot a bolt go to it, if you want the benefits of a double, it ought to fit like a shotgun for instictive pointing - otherwise that fast tang safety or fast second shot means squat. (Conversly, if you want to maximize your potential with a bolt rifle, both with regard to accuracy and with regard to rapidity of cycling the bolt, you ought to have a shorter stock than your 'instictive' shotgun...}

I can tell you that your weight and fitness have a significant effect on stock dimensions that work as well...

The choice is yours, as is the selection of dimensions.

JPK

Indy:

Let us know where you are. I would bet there be will be several guys in your area that have doubles that you could make arrangements to shoot.

I did buy my Krieghoff sight unseen from GarBy. I had never even seen or held one. It fit's me great except the length ot pull to the front trigger is a bit long. I think the stock recoil pad was replaced with a different pad which added a bit to the length of pull. I might change out the recoil pad with something a bit shorter but I want to shoot it a bit more before making a decision. I will let some of the other guys here with more experience way in here but I think that a length of pull to the fron trigger on most double is a bit in excess of 14 inches. Is that correc guys?

Dave

I have a Heym that was built to my measurements as you describe. It fits me very well. I can shoulder the rifle with my eyes closed and everything is in alignment when I open them. You shouldn't be concerned about the fit, Chris knows what he's doing.

Dave...the K-gun with factory "pad"....and I loosely say that...was 14.5"...or maybe a hair under. I had a good 'smith in my area put on a 1" or 1.25" pad...sorry, I forget. You are correct....most doubles from the factory are about 14 and 3/8" to 14.5".

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Indy until you shoot a double that fits you, you can not appreciate how a rifle fits so well... Like an extension of your arm...

Mike

My Chapuis came to me with the LOP to the front trigger at 15-9/16"... That's waay too long for me, and i plan to cut it to 14-1/4" over the pad. I just haven't had the time to deal with it right now...

DM