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I recently bought a 450 ne double and found I have trouble getting my head down far enough to shoot the express sights comfortably (too much scope use). So I scoped the double (yes it's blasphemy). I'm working on a 500 grain cast bullet load now and getting 7" groups at 100yds crossing. The groups are getting better the heavier the charge. I started at 60 grains of Imr 4350 and 12" groups. Now at 66 grains. First Question is should keep working on this load or quit? Second question anyone know what the max charge of Imr 4350 behind a 500gr cast bullet might be? Thanks for any input. . | ||
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You are going in the wrong direction, on three fronts. I: Scope. 2: Cast bullet. 3: Wrong powder. I have had 3 450s and one 450 BPE but that doesn't count; now one; a searcy; it shoots into 1.5 inches at 50 all day. Anyway, since your bullets are crossing it means you aren't getting enough muzzle jump/flip to bring the bullets back out to center. Adding the scope makes the rifle heavier and makes it harder for it to move. You need a slower powder, and more of it; it is not just velocity that makes for regulation; it is how the bullet gets to that velocity that matters just as much. My rifles use 96 IMR4831. Nothing else, and lighter charges of a faster powder, and yes I have used 4350, even at the same velocity, won't work. They crossed. Just like yours. And lastly, getting the cast bullet to regulate may or may not be possible. How did it work with jacketed? Or whatever it was regulated with. Not sure why you want a scope; at most, use a red dot sight; they are light and won't affect regulation. Drs are not bolt actions and follow none of the same shooting principles. None. Maybe pulling a trigger is it. | |||
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First: 7" composite group @ 100 in most 450 doubles -"ain't that bad" As most are regulated for 50 -60 yards. Second: Did the Smith that mounted the scope re-regulate the gun? If so what was that load? Third: If not What was the loads the gun was originally regulated with- Then shoot that load for group to see the before and after comparison of group. Fourth: If the original regulation load is unknown- and no re-regulation load created after scoping- Was there a load it shot well before the scope? if so shoot that load for group-- to compare the before and after effects of the scope mounting? Fifth: Despite DPCD's admonishments- After my almost 55 years of double rifle shootng/reloading- over my 60+ guns and many others-- there are no hard and fast rules with respect to powder or bullet As to his summary dismissal of scopes-- go take a leap i have owned 20+ scoped DR's and have shot many more (up to 577) while true , asthetically it is odd to some as well as creating re-regulation issues , if not regulated with the optic- it is a personal preference and the owners choice- Sixth: keep working at it the big bores (45 and up) are the most forgiving as to bullet change and powder change DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I shot 20 rds with my 450 today.It has been a while since I shot it.I was not positioned properly off the bench and my thumb did some work on my nose.Anyways it was shooting really good at 50 yds.The rifle is a Searcy. | |||
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Thanks for the replies I should have given u a little more info as to my intentions This gun is never going dangerous game hunting purely a toy to shoot an couple whitetails with 480gr jacketed bullets may as well be a solid in a whitetail. It's regulated with Hornady 480gr and irons. It shots well with the irons and cast(4"at 100) just not comfortably as I would like to use the irons. The rifle is factory drilled and tapped for scope and yes a red dot maybe what happens next. I had a starting point for using 4350 (45-120. Data) no starting point for other powders. | |||
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Ok, if it shoots 4 inches at 100 with irons, and you added the scope, you have your answer. It was the scope. Go with the red dot; a fraction of the mass. Yes I have scoped DRs, most notably my Krieghoff 450-400 and it didn't affect regulation. But they can. Just because it is factory drilled does not mean it was regulated with a scope. You have proven it won't work. There is plenty of load data for 450 NE; stop using other cartridge data. Not a good idea with DRs. Get the Graeme Wright book. Even Hornady has data. | |||
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Not sure where your finding plenty of data for cast bullets in a 450. If I can't make it work I'll switch to a red dot | |||
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Data for jacketed bullets I meant. Graemes book has data for BPE Nitro for Black loads in it. You are making it do something it was not designed to do so you have to experiment with it. As you are doing. But the regulation principles are the same. | |||
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Go take a leap? I just read that. That was uncalled for! I have several DRs with scopes. Not sure why you are being mean. I am trying to help the OP. | |||
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Thanks for mentioning the 450 bpe I completely forgot to look for loads under 450 bpe | |||
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Perhaps- Although-
First: you should learn to interpret REAL MEANNESS of which my commentary expressly lacked- Second: The above quoted phrases posted by you do not read much like an an effort to help- Rather, it more likely interprets - "how wrong (and/or stupid) can you be" DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Dcpd thank you and everyone else as well. You were right the imr 4350 did not work no matter the velocity. I didn't have Imr 4831 as u suggested but did try h4831. Had to make a guess on a starting load of 74 grains behind a 500 grain lead gaschecked bullet. I haven't decided on a final load of either 76 grains or 78 grains they shot -2" and -4" at 100 respectfully. Need a few more groups each to decide. Shoulder is a little sore at the moment. Thanks again all | |||
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Dug, your interpretation is wrong; trust me, if and when I want to tell someone he or she is stupid, I will do so. I have no time for innuendos; I will tell it as I see it. The OP needed guidance, to get back on track with his loading, which I provided. If you didn't like it, I can't help it; it wasn't for you anyway. Buck, feel free to contact me with any questions. I will help in any way I can. | |||
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All this ado about nothing! A full 90% of the time one mounts a scope on a double rifle that was not regulated with a scope of the same weight, and height above the bore, one will experience what this original poster did! This is especially true if the double is old, and was never intended to have a scope. Sometimes one will get lucky, and find a load that will regulate properly, but that is rare. Guessing to find a workable load is usually a waste of powder, and bullets. Re-regulation is the best fix in most cases, and once a workable load is found, stock up on brass, and powder, for that load just in case some of the components are discontinued. Good luck with your double, and disregard the bickering, that is a waste of time! .......................................  MacD37....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Here's what I did: Mounted a Swarovski 1.25-4x on my Harrison and Hussey .450-400. Regualtion was way off after the scope was on but was 2" at 50 yards before. So, I sighted in the scope for the left barrel only making my scoped double an accurate single shot. I shot a caribou and a hartebeest, both over 200 yards and a one shot kill. When the scope of taken off I have my accurate and original double rifle. Scope on, a great single shot. Works for me. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I like the sound of your scope, Cal. Would I be right in thinking that with such a moderate zoom multiple it is quite old and of reticle-movement construction? | |||
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_______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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The scope's top is 4x. My typo. No reticle movement, heavy plex cross hairs. I get the best of both worlds--accurate with or without the scope. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I'll stir the pot a bit. Years ago I jury rigged a 1 x4 leupold on my 45-70 Chapuis. The scope is pretty light, about 10 oz. Regulation didn't change. Accuracy was a little better due to the sights. Just points out that you never know. Dave | |||
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Nopride2, The regulation on my Simson Suhl .405 WCF DR is the same with express sights, QD peep sight, and QD Leupold 1x4 variable scope. Go figger!  Regulation target shot at 50 yards:  NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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That's a fine shooting 405 u have there | |||
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Thank you Buckdeer. It also saves ammo!  Another 50 yard Bang Flop:  Nice red deer cow/hind estimated at 300 pounds. Tasty as elk! NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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without reading the other posts all I can say is it your bullets are crossing over, you need to cut back your load, not increase it... Doubles are normally regulated with a certain bullet and weight and in most cases that would be Woodleighs as they are the closest shape to the Kynochs of yeasteryear... Id cut the comb down a little until it pointed to POI when mounted to my shoulder..A scope on a double is akin to incest, rape, and child molestatioon IMHO...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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