How reliable would a setup like this be? I am a competitive shooter and instinctive with one trigger. I am thinking easily maintained locks with accessible duplicate locks would approach the reliability of dual triggers.

I know of the traditional atguments agains st.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
How reliable would a setup like this be? I am a competitive shooter and instinctive with one trigger. I am thinking easily maintained locks with accessible duplicate locks would approach the reliability of dual triggers.

I know of the traditional atguments agains st.

Norsk, if you intend using the rifle to hunt dangerous game and you insist on a single trigger, please order a MECHANICAL type that is SELECTIVE!

..........................................................................

Single triggers will never equal the reliability of doubles even if paired with detach locks. Even mechanical, selective ones, have more moving machinery going on and if you have a failure, or misfire, you will have to move the selector button. Not something to have to do under stress. Moving your finger to the rear trigger is easier to learn. I know, I should say, get what you want. Do that.

What level of mechanical complexity does single trigger add? Are we talking about parts that wear or break easily? Will the barrel selector be hard to familiarize myself with.

I am all for the KISS principle but there are two perhaps conflicting levels of simplicity, mechanical (favoring two triggers) and "handeling" (favoring one trigger). Barrel selector may add both types.


Also wondering if risk of doubling is reduced with single trigger setup?

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
What level of mechanical complexity does single trigger add? Are we talking about parts that wear or break easily? Will the barrel selector be hard to familiarize myself with.

I am all for the KISS principle but there are two perhaps conflicting levels of simplicity, mechanical (favoring two triggers) and "handeling" (favoring one trigger). Barrel selector may add both types.


Also wondering if risk of doubling is reduced with single trigger setup?

I am sure you have asked WR about this. What did they say?.

Thinking of this thread here. Does this relate to guns in general?.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...381025371#7381025371

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
What level of mechanical complexity does single trigger add? Are we talking about parts that wear or break easily? Will the barrel selector be hard to familiarize myself with.

I am all for the KISS principle but there are two perhaps conflicting levels of simplicity, mechanical (favoring two triggers) and "handeling" (favoring one trigger). Barrel selector may add both types.


Also wondering if risk of doubling is reduced with single trigger setup?

On a Westley the selector is easy to use.

Yikes, hope we don't have a feud between Norway and Denmark. Aren't you guys neighbors?
As for the Westley selector; my point would be that, whilst you are snicking the selector to another position (in an emergency) you would be better served to just move your trigger finger to, another trigger. Nothing to remember or forget, in a DG rifle. The reason I do not like single triggers (other than the nostalgia thing) is that they are part of a more complicated mechanism that makes them trip both sears. Often initiated by recoil. Just more to go wrong. Double triggers are independent of each other. Not to mention that a single trigger probably adds much to the cost of the rifle.

The Westley trigger is mechanical and does not require recoil to reset to the next trigger. There is always something to remember or forget with any rifle system. Practice is the best remedy for that.

Does a pull of the trigger automatically select the other barrel for the following shot? Or must the selector switch be moved first?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Does a pull of the trigger automatically select the other barrel for the following shot? Or must the selector switch be moved first?

The selector only determines the order of firing. The trigger functions fully with each pull even with snap caps.

I have a pair of Westley Richards round action 12 g shotguns that have single selective triggers.
I have had no problems with their reliability & as Gatsby mentioned above, it is really
not that difficult to select which barrel to use.
Unfortunately, they are not droplocks but simply boxlocks, but still beautiful & reliable!
Jim
P.S.
I would have no problem hunting DG with a WR double with a single selective triggger

quote:

I am sure you have asked WR about this. What did they say?.

Thinking of this thread here. Does this relate to guns in general?.

Jens Poulsen... I have no idea how you find my arguments against shooting big five with bows (now that we have much more effetive tools) relevant to this discussion. I intend to hunt cape buffalo, but that does not interfere with my concern for animal welfare (humane hunting).. Please explain...Or stop trying to derail my thread.

Sadly I can not afford an authentic WR, I am thinking about the .450 droplock Bailey Bradshaw is building (am in cue), originally ordered with two triggers and extractor (KISS principle), as well as duplicate locks. Still have time to configure (build will start pretty soon however)...

I really laugh when I read these single versus double triggers discussion and wonder if double trigger users are still driving round in Model T Fords. Continuing to perpetuate the fallacy nowadays that single triggers are so unreliable that they are a danger in themselves when hunting DG is really just not facing facts of modern manufacture of firearms and ammunition.

If I read correctly it seems that a very high percentage of SXS double barreled and triggered guns are purchased and have to be returned to the gunsmith to have a variety of issues fixed before they are deemed suitable for use. Seems to cover the gambit of regulation (for a gun that has supposedly been regulated with the same ammo the new owner tries), to extraction issues, trigger issues, firing pin issues, you name it something seems to be wrong with a large percentage of new doubles coming from the manufacturer. On this basis why the hell would anyone trust a double on DG. Sure you might get the issues fixed but would you trust some of them not to rear their ugly heads again?

Getting back to double triggers specifically, if they are so reliable and give certainty of the second shot always, why do we not see every gun used in the competitive trap and skeet arena so equipped. Where Olympic medals are at stake we don't see double triggers we see exclusively ultra reliable single triggers.

Double triggers and locks very likely originated from the days of poor quality steels for springs and firing pins and other parts plus poor quality ammunition where miss-fires were relatively common especially in black powder firearms but also in the early years of smokeless. Many of the hunters and writers of old spoke of miss-firing ammo and broken firing pins and springs. In fact the removable side locks were promoted for ease of repair in the field.

How about a poll - how many experience miss-fires with ammo today. After thousands upon thousands of shotgun ammo fired in competition, both reloads and factory, I have only ever had one miss-fire and that was a Winchester factory round. Of the thousands of rounds of rifle and pistol ammo fired I have had no miss-fires. Why would I ever contemplate having double triggers over singles with that record. Oh yes someone will say but what if that miss-fire was when facing DG. Well if I based my safari on beating those odds I would be a thousand or more times likely more likely to die in a road accident or a plane crash on the way - so I'm not chancing that so just won't go to Africa.

Personally I think the myth of double trigger reliability over single triggers needs laying to rest, of course those that have them and use them fine, I just wouldn't promote them over single triggers without cold hard statistics that show those using single triggers in any firearm on DG are in any greater danger or more to the point have suffer injury or death because of the single trigger. Waiting with great expectation to see these statistics.

Eagle27, All things new are not necessarily improvements!

The KISS Factor explains the whole idea of a double rifle. The best designed double rifle is two completely independent rifles on the same stock! The one thing that takes that independence away is the single trigger. Any single item that both sides has to depend on to operate is an item a double rifle is not in need of.

That however is not a command that everyone should have double triggers, If you want a single trigger on your double rifle, go for it!

All the clay bird competitions in the world will in no way tell you what is the best system for taking on the Bite & stomps when you are short on time to stop them.

I have single triggered double rifles, and shotguns alike, but the rifles are chambered for deer type animals, and the shotguns are for birds and rabbits. My double rifles used for hunting anything that can, and will kill you have double triggers, and Manual safeties. That is my choice, and I'm in ranks with most who hunt dangerous game with a double rifle.

Still, as I said, it is simply a personal choice but as long as either work when needed the choices is sound. If either fail which would you rather have to finish the fight?

Eagle it seems to me that you are not a double rifle guy, or at least new to double rifles, and basing your opinion on shotguns. These two firearms are designed for two very different purposes, and because a design is old, in no way makes it no longer viable and dependable!

Opinions vary, and this is my opinion, and only worth what the reader has paid for it!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
...The KISS Factor...Any single item that both sides has to depend on to operate is an item a double rifle is not in need of...

Except for the sights!

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
...The KISS Factor...Any single item that both sides has to depend on to operate is an item a double rifle is not in need of...

Except for the sights!

And the single nut behind the butt

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Eagle27, All things new are not necessarily improvements!

The KISS Factor explains the whole idea of a double rifle. The best designed double rifle is two completely independent rifles on the same stock! The one thing that takes that independence away is the single trigger. Any single item that both sides has to depend on to operate is an item a double rifle is not in need of.

That however is not a command that everyone should have double triggers, If you want a single trigger on your double rifle, go for it!

All the clay bird competitions in the world will in no way tell you what is the best system for taking on the Bite & stomps when you are short on time to stop them.

I have single triggered double rifles, and shotguns alike, but the rifles are chambered for deer type animals, and the shotguns are for birds and rabbits. My double rifles used for hunting anything that can, and will kill you have double triggers, and Manual safeties. That is my choice, and I'm in ranks with most who hunt dangerous game with a double rifle.

Still, as I said, it is simply a personal choice but as long as either work when needed the choices is sound. If either fail which would you rather have to finish the fight?

Eagle it seems to me that you are not a double rifle guy, or at least new to double rifles, and basing your opinion on shotguns. These two firearms are designed for two very different purposes, and because a design is old, in no way makes it no longer viable and dependable!

Opinions vary, and this is my opinion, and only worth what the reader has paid for it!

Mac

Everything you say is true, and I don't disagree that the double rifle serves a purpose in the same way a double shotgun does and from my experience of both (double rifles to a limited degree) they provide a great platform for shootability, reliability and effectiveness as you are well versed in.

The big BUT is that things have progressed in manufacturing techniques, steels etc, to the point of where other options such as single selective triggers (could include scopes and other types of sights etc) offer advantages and reliability that can surpass the old, just as advances in the motor car industry and almost everything else we use have also done. Agree with you that not everything new are improvements but in nations who have traditions of using good steels with tightly controlled manufacturing processes, much of what they produce is unbeatable.

I have also seen and worked on the insides of both shotguns and double or multi-barreled rifles (more so shotguns), and also for comparison inspected the internal workings of bespoke firearms while visiting that world famous town of firearm manufacture and gunsmithing, Ferlach in Austria, and to be honest what you see in some doubles would not inspire that much confidence that they will be the ultimate in reliability.

On the other side of the coin I look in side my Miroku O/U single selective trigger shotgun and it is a simple extremely well made example of modern advances in manufacturing, every internal part carefully finished and polished to such a degree you would think it had been hand made and super expensive. The trigger pull for both barrels is crisp with not a hint of creep, good enough to place 22 WMRs into a little over an inch at 50m using an insert barrel and the double bead shotgun sights. I would be converted to a double user instantly if I could have a rifle built the same way by Miroku.

Again I agree with you that each to his own as to opinion and use, but when advice is given to someone thinking of purchasing a firearm of any particular type the advice should be based on current fact and not what may have been relevant in the earlier times. My contention is that advice saying that doubles need to have, or should have, double triggers for the utmost reliability is just not recognising advances in manufacturing and materials and the reliability that is derived from that.

My point of using the example of competitive shot gun shooting is to show that to the sportsman who has invested in many cases more time and money to his chosen sport than many ever would in hunting DG, reliability and consistency of his shotguns performance is as important to success as it is to the hunter and off course the highly competitive shot-gunner is possibly going to be pulling that single trigger more times in his sporting career than all the DG hunters put together.

I would guess that more hunters use single actions and bolt actions on DG hunting and we don't hear of hard luck stories where the single trigger has let them down, maybe other failures such as failure to feed, safety on, or where a second quick shot was not available, but not where the single trigger mechanism has failed.

Finally, how many of you double barreled double trigger users are using cast bullets or the early Kynoch style softs and solids in your ammo on DG, you should be as that is really keeping with the way it was done. You don't need these new fangled bullets in your fine doubles

Our gamebird season opens this Saturday, now where is that Miroku O/U so I can fondle and admire a great feat of engineering, manufacture and reliability

Thank you Eagle, for a very civil reply to my post! I totally agree with almost everything you wrote.

As I have said I have many doubles both rifle and shotgun with single triggers, and for the purpose they were designed they are fine, and problem free so far with some that have been in my position for almost 50 yrs.

That being said, I find nothing in you post about the things that happen Inside your rifle that have nothing to do with the reliability of the single trigger, or outside the rifle in your hands that cause a person to have make a change of how you operate the rifle in a millisecond when time is the key to staying alive, or dying.

It makes no difference how well a double rifle is made, things happen inside on occasion that may cause one barrel or the other to fail that are not because of the single trigger. In those cases one needs to instantly make the right decision in a split second.

Example: You get a close in charge! You pull the trigger and that barrel doesn't fire. The decision you make here can be a life saver, or can get you into deep crap. IN this example we do not know why that barrel didn't fire.

The problem may be a broken striker, it may be a dead primer, it may be a broken tumbler spring, or it could be the single trigger though admittedly that is not likely. Still we do not know!

Now! if you make the right decision you will still have a working single shot, if not the time taken because of your mistake may be your last one!

The reason I' say the above is the proper immediate fix is in all cases is to immediately switch the selective trigger to the other barrel. Here most single trigger shotgun shooters would simply let the mechanically operated single trigger just fire the other barrel, and that would be a mistake. The second a barrel decides to not fire for any reason the selector should immediately be shifted to fir the other barrel first then pull the trigger.

The reason is, "If" a striker or tumbler spring is the problem then after firing the good barrel and breaking the rifle for a re-load both rounds will be ejected from the rifle so we still don’t know what the problem was. After the reload, because you switched the selector to the other barrel, before opening the rifle, the next time you pull the trigger the good barrel with fire, regardless of the reason for the failure of the other barrel to fire. If you hadn’t switched the selector it would try to fire the barrel that didn’t fire the first time. If it was simply a dud, all is well, but if it is a mechanically induced misfire, it will misfire again. The misfire after a re-load may be the one that gives old buff time enough to get to you, and when that happens it will make no difference why that barrel didn’t fire.

Though the double triggers are old school, the need for speed of decision is today! With a set of double triggers you simply fire the back trigger, and after the re-load, you fire the back trigger first because you know the right barrel didn’t fire the first time, and there is no difference in which barrel will fir first after your re-load because the triggers do not re-set to the first barrel the did not fire, and if is a spring or broke striker on the barrel it will be re-cocked along with the good barrel but will no make you pull on the bad barrel because you forgot to switch the trigger.

When you pull a trigger and the barrel doesn’t fire while you are in tight spot, it is easy to make mistakes that the OLD simple system does not! You see the reliability of the trigger to work as designed is the problem here, because if you don’t switch to the other barrel the trigger being exactly perfect that very RELIABLE single trigger will AUTOMATICLLY go right bake to where it was originally set after the re-load, and if that side is broken in any way you are in trouble!

Because these thing don’t happen every day one never gets enough practice of what to do or this eventuality, and when it happens a stressed mind doesn’t make good decisions!

As said before it is a personal choice, and I’ll always recommend double triggers to any one new to double rifle that will be used to hunt dangerous game. The recommendation is not a mandate, but just a suggestion to be taken or refused.

…………….KISS FACTOR protects the NUT BEHIND THE TRIGGER!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Personally I think the myth of double trigger reliability over single triggers needs laying to rest, of course those that have them and use them fine, I just wouldn't promote them over single triggers without cold hard statistics that show those using single triggers in any firearm on DG are in any greater danger or more to the point have suffer injury or death because of the single trigger. Waiting with great expectation to see these statistics.

I am a bit confused by your logic. With two independent triggers, the likelihood of one being in operating condition is twice that of one trigger alone being in operating condition. Pretty simple concept that. And the same improvements in metals, fitting technology, etc. apply to improvements in double triggers just as much as they do to single triggers.

So, why promote single triggers for DG? Because the shooter doesn't practice with his DG rifle enough to automatically use the two triggers? The cure to that is easy, and non-mechanical at all. And the practice with the double will also improve his accuracy with it, making a second barrel less likely to be needed, no matter which trigger system is in it.

I have used both, and I always pick two triggers for my doubles when I have the choice. That's one reason I also like older shotguns, like my pretty little LC Smiths, or my W.W. Greener. I don't vary back and forth all the time, and I can kill two birds at least as fast as a man with a single trigger shotgun. (and with a two triggered shotgun, if a bird jumps up significantly closer or farther away than I expected, I don't have to putz with a selector to get the barrel with the correct choke for the distance to fire.)

With the selector and trigger in close proximity to one another as in the Westley many scenarios as above really don't apply. If you don't have confidence in a particular rifle or system, I agree, don't hunt it.

Alberta Canuck,

I always really enjoy reading your posts. I have learned allot from them.

Mac and Albert, I enjoy your posts and of course they come from long use and experience with your doubles and other rifles and everything you both say is perfectly logical. I suppose I come from a position of just what are the odds of things going wrong and are those odds enough to stop you using or doing and enjoying something.
Perhaps as an example of how I think of things and odds is in my earlier years of hunting I used helicopters often to get to where I wanted to go. I never gave it much thought back in those days about the danger of the situation but it certainly caught my attention a couple of years ago when loading up (overloading) our gear into a chopper to get into our hunting area in the Alps during a rain and snow storm. Three of us + the pilot packed into a Hughes 500 with me in the back amongst all our gear, spare fuel for the chopper, gas bottles, guns and everything that would fit to the ceiling and in the skid pod. With the turbo screaming within a couple of inches of my head and having to sneak our way up under the cloud and mist into the mighty Southern Alps was a real wake up shock to my senses being years older with a family to think of and after many years away from such experiences of old.
Would I not risk that again, you bet I would, I was there again last year lifting of from our snowed in campsite overloaded to the point of the chopper having to hover after the initial lift to re-build rotor speed and then fall down the steep narrow river ravine to get enough forward speed to allow the machine to lift up over the mountain ridges in front.
Back to guns, the advances in technology just as in the choppers I have spoken of, puts a different slant on reliability and danger for me now and I would be perfectly happy with a well-fitting gun in a design and style I am most comfortable with whether that be a bolt action or a double.
Of course that’s not to say that there is anything at all wrong or less desirable in any of the other styles and I’m not promoting bolts over doubles or single triggers over double triggers. For me it is what you are most comfortable with and used to shooting and of course what you can afford.
If making the transition from a single trigger O/U shotgun that a hunter shoots well with, to me it is very logical to go with the same style in a double rifle.

The choice between double and single triggers cannot necessarily be reduced to mechanical factors. I am fortunate, because I can switch back and forth between autoloading and pump shotguns and single trigger and double trigger shotguns and rifles with never a hitch. I shot International Skeet competitively for a number of years using exclusively O/U's with single triggers, but before that I had used a Winchester Model 12 skeet gun. All my S/S shotguns have double triggers, none of my O/U shotguns does. All my double rifles and drillings have double triggers, even though I have both S/S and O/U version double rifles.

However, my duck hunting buddy, whom I have known for 60 years, had to give away a nice Browning pump action shotgun which his wife had given him for Christmas because he could never remember to pump after the first shot. His only other experience had been with autoloaders.

My point is, with a dangerous game rifle, go with what you are familiar with, even if it introduces an element of mechanical uncertainty. However, if you can familiarize yourself with double triggers to the point that you are totally comfortable with them, then that is the route to go.

quote:

Example: You get a close in charge! You pull the trigger and that barrel doesn't fire. The decision you make here can be a life saver, or can get you into deep crap. IN this example we do not know why that barrel didn't fire. The problem may be a broken striker, it may be a dead primer, it may be a broken tumbler spring, or it could be the single trigger though admittedly that is not likely. Still we do not know! Now! if you make the right decision you will still have a working single shot, if not the time taken because of your mistake may be your last one! The reason I' say the above is the proper immediate fix is in all cases is to immediately switch the selective trigger to the other barrel. Here most single trigger shotgun shooters would simply let the mechanically operated single trigger just fire the other barrel, and that would be a mistake. The second a barrel decides to not fire for any reason the selector should immediately be shifted to fir the other barrel first then pull the trigger.

With a mechanical trigger this is unnecessary, merely pulling the trigger again will fire the second barrel. [With an inertia trigger it would be necessary though.]

IMO, selectors are tits on a bull. When presented with a quick shot the shooter must shoot which ever barrel is already selected since there is no selector which can without any extra time or effort be used to switch barrels, with the possible exception of the selector integrated into the safety slide.

If you have time there is no need for a selector, simply put whatever cartridge you want in the barrel which will fire first and do the same with the second barrel.

When in Africa, on tracks or walking the rivers and bush with a big bore rifle with a single non selective mechanical trigger, you are reasonably well set always so long as both barrels have solids in them. Solids will kill anything, even though they are not ideal in some situations. This is especially true since your greatest potential trouble is from elephants and the second greatest threat is from cape buffalo. Only solids for elephants, and, unlike elephants, cape buffalo are only reliably stopped with a CNS strike, so you loose no effectiveness with a solid.

Alberta Canuck, for the fellow long accustomed to shooting double guns with a single trigger, of any sort shotgun or rifle, adopting a new format for one and not every use is asking for trouble imo. Especially when that use is something so infrequent as a cape buffalo or elephant hunt, when compared to the other uses, like sporting clays, skeet, int'l trap, ducks, geese, grouse, quail, etc, etc, etc.

For example, the reason I chose a double trigger big bore SxS rifle for my DG hunting is because that is the format that I was most accustomed to shooting, though shotguns and not rifles. If I pursued my many shotgun sports with a O/U single trigger guns it would have been wise of me to select a single trigger O/U big bore DR, or chose to switch en mass and move to double trigger SxS guns and rifles.

Muscle memory and training are everything. Fortunately, or unfortunately, shooting skeet, ducks, geese, etc, etc, IS training for shooting DG, especially when it comes to triggers and reloading, and to elephants, the only DG game you shoot up at.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Mac and Albert, I enjoy your posts and of course they come from long use and experience with your doubles and other rifles and everything you both say is perfectly logical. I suppose I come from a position of just what are the odds of things going wrong and are those odds enough to stop you using or doing and enjoying something.
Perhaps as an example of how I think of things and odds is in my earlier years of hunting I used helicopters often to get to where I wanted to go. I never gave it much thought back in those days about the danger of the situation but it certainly caught my attention a couple of years ago when loading up (overloading) our gear into a chopper to get into our hunting area in the Alps during a rain and snow storm. Three of us + the pilot packed into a Hughes 500 with me in the back amongst all our gear, spare fuel for the chopper, gas bottles, guns and everything that would fit to the ceiling and in the skid pod. With the turbo screaming within a couple of inches of my head and having to sneak our way up under the cloud and mist into the mighty Southern Alps was a real wake up shock to my senses being years older with a family to think of and after many years away from such experiences of old.
Would I not risk that again, you bet I would, I was there again last year lifting of from our snowed in campsite overloaded to the point of the chopper having to hover after the initial lift to re-build rotor speed and then fall down the steep narrow river ravine to get enough forward speed to allow the machine to lift up over the mountain ridges in front.
Back to guns, the advances in technology just as in the choppers I have spoken of, puts a different slant on reliability and danger for me now and I would be perfectly happy with a well-fitting gun in a design and style I am most comfortable with whether that be a bolt action or a double.
Of course that’s not to say that there is anything at all wrong or less desirable in any of the other styles and I’m not promoting bolts over doubles or single triggers over double triggers. For me it is what you are most comfortable with and used to shooting and of course what you can afford.
If making the transition from a single trigger O/U shotgun that a hunter shoots well with, to me it is very logical to go with the same style in a double rifle.

Eagle, I never misunderstood your point and preference for a single trigger, and an O/U double rifle! The only thing I was doing is making you aware of some of the draw-backs involved with that type of rifle set-up. The reason for this is so you might form a practice theme so if the instance comes to pass, you will automatically take the proper tack to avoid a catastrophe! Nothing more.

Eagle, unfortunately I have a very direct way of writing, and speaking that is often taken as being pontificating, when it isn't meant that way at all.

While I'm here let me comment on something you posted earlier! You said if you could find a double rifle with the Miroku quality that would be your choice. The Browning O/U double rifle was made by Miroku and is a fine example of that type of firearm. It's only draw-back is it comes in nothing larger than 9.3X74R, but the quality is there!

Good hunting!
...........................................................................................

Thanks Mac, and be assured I enjoy your posts and don't take anything from your direct approach, we all have different ways of putting things when we are passionate about our interests. You have told me something I didn't know, the availability of the Browning O/U rifle. Although I have never owned a 9.3 I have used a friends 9.3x62 and it seems to be a good calibre. You have aroused my interest now although I don't think there would be too many if any of these guns in NZ. Kind regards.

After corresponding with Bailey I am going for double triggers, WR ejectors, duplicate locks, will have to see how much money I will have left for engraving...

PS: Bailey wants to build double trigger double rifles.

Made my "choise" easier