I am shooting a Heym Safari as you guys know from my previous thread,the gun was regulated with Federal weldcore soft points,500 woodleighs,
If you have a similar gun,I would appreciate some reloading info using the 500 woodleighs,thanks.

I am not sure about the reloading information, however you may have to target 2150-2200 FPS. I have a 88B Safari and I chrono'd the federal Woodleigh solids and they clocked right at 2200 FPS out of my 24" barrel (Oheler 35). By most acounts some of the softs are a bit slower. I cannot verify as I have not checked the velocity on that offering.

EZ

Bill

In my Heym 88B .470 it regulated best with 85 grains RL 15 with Woodleigh 500 grain softs. This load yielded an instrument velocity of 2020 FPS. I would use one grain less with solids.

Don

Bal:

Federal is loaded with non-canister Reloder 15 and their F216 flamethrower. The problem with it is that it is so inconsistent from lot to lot. One off the rack batch tested at 1900 fps in a 24" lab pressure gun. Chris chronoed a batch from a 24" Heym that ran 2240. It will just depend on what the individual batch that your gun was regulated with did. Work up with RL 15 using Kynoch wads or, say, 5 grains dacron until the barrels come together. Shoot over a chronograph.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I started at 87 grains of Rx 15,as that load had been working for me in my previous rifle,I got about 2200 fps over my chrono,shooting over sticks,it gave me a 7" group horizontally at 50 yrds,it was crossed,I am now at 80 grains,velocity is at 2000 fps & it is still crossing,I am getting 2" groups at 50 yrds.I am using foam wads same as Kynoch & CCI LRM primers.

Bal:

Sounds like your rifle was regulated with a slow batch of Federal. That crap is all over the place.

Probably won't work, but it's worth a try...work back up with IMR 4831, starting with 96 grains, and watch the velocity. No filler. It might uncross 'em.

Jim took delivery of a new .450/.400 3 1/4" last weekend. At standard velocity with RL 15, it crossed 5 inches at 50 yards. With IMR 4831 at the same velocity, it uncrossed 'em and shot lights out. It's never worked that way in my rifles, but it sure did in that one. Worth a try.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mark,
I am sure that you are right,I can probably get it to work,I have already killed a pig with them crossing,but I think I would like to shoot factory when I want to,I would like to have that option open to me when I have no time to reload,
I am talking to Chris now,I am sure he'll work it out for me,thanks.

Bal

Give the IMR 4831 a try.
In Jims Evans 470 RL 15 would not regulate either, with IMR 4831 is shoots great.

I would try some Hornaday factory ammo as well.

It is loaded with a slower powder than RL 15.

I never thought about it until now but both of those doubles that don't shoot R-15 are William Evans rifles.

Probably just coincidence

I have two Merkels in 470 and I started at 84gr of RL15 and worked up from there with 500gr Woodleighs. My older Merkel came together and chronoed at 2145-2175 at 87gr of RL15 with a #2 Kynoch wad and the Woodleigh softnose. My newer Merkel shot the same with one less grain of that same lot of RL15. I load the solids one half grain less than the softs.

Gentlemen,
let me ask this,what are acceptable groups @ 50,100 & 150 yrds,at what distance is crossing acceptable ?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
let me ask this,what are acceptable groups @ 50,100 & 150 yrds,at what distance is crossing acceptable ?

Why should crossing be acceptable ????

Better to get the gun shooting right in the first place.

Acceptable accuracy in 6 - 10 " at 15 yards.
(that's the gun, not the shooter !!!)

These guns are more than capable of outstanding accuracy.

With proper loads in a properly regulated double it should NEVER cross.

I have shot my 9,3x74R on paper at 300 yards, it does not cross.

Near as I can tell, shooting rocks with my 2 big bore dubles they do not cross at 300 yards either, AND the flip up leaves on the sights are spot on.

The longest shots I have made with my ironsighted big bores are a giraffe at @188 yards with the 450, and a caribou at @150/175 yards with the 400.

SO, IF my 470 was only crossing 3 inches or so at 150 yards I could live with that.

You might try holding the rifle a little tighter when testing loads.

Some people tend to hold looser when practicing than when they are shooting at game.

Bal
Baised on your Factory target...

Go back and try RL15 again. Start with 84gr.
Shoot 85 and 86gr and see if it is still crossing.

Tony,
I have shot,88,87,84,83,82,they all crossed at 50 yrds.

Well, change Primer, Powder, seating depth, crimp / no crimp - one at a time - and see if that makes a difference.

It's just a process of elimination to get the desired result.

And make sure you have a Chrony.

Write down everything you do and follow a logical sequence - don't chop and change all over the place / different things at the same time.

You only need 4 shots to work out what the gun is doing per load, then find one that's close and concentrate on that one until you exhaust it as an option or find the sweet spot.

Also - try the extremes as well - very slow, very fast just to see what it does.

You will build up a knowledge bank of that rifle and then all of a sudden it will click.

And I agree with 4831. I prefer bulky powders, no fillers anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Tony,
I have shot,88,87,84,83,82,they all crossed at 50 yrds.

Then try IMR 4831. It has worked in a few other doubles.

Noting the comment regarding "fast or slow" lots of powders, RE15 and others as well, have been told by experienced long range shooters that one is better served in buying powder in the larger containers, 8lb for example, vs the 1 pound cans for the burn rate does vary more with the small can lots than the
larger containers. Whether this is a fact or not, can't say for sure, but rarely buy 1 lb can of powder primarily that it saves a few bucks/lb. with the 5-8lb jugs.
Am considering the purchase of double rifle at this time, but as was pointed out, would think that both shots would not cross paths providing everything involved was correct. My budget restricts me to either a Chapuis or basic Merkel model and would hope both barrels delivered equal peformance in separate flights of the bullet.

Guys, on a double with open sights, does it really make a difference if the right and left are crossing if you are shooting a 2-3 inch group at 60 meters? I am loading 100 grains of IMR 4831 in my .470. They are running about 2020 fps but still crossing slightly. I don't want to slow it down anymore and I am not really concerned that they are crossing a bit if I can put two shots in a five inch pie plate with open sights at 50 meters.

Dave

But what happens if you need to take a follow up shot at 100 - 150 yards ?

Have you tried all the options to stop it crossing at 50 metres - powder, primer, crimp / no crimp, seating depth etc etc

BTW - Have you tried speeding it up ?

I have a Heym PH in 470. I've never shot factory loads with it, rather went straight to working up reloads. (IIRC, it was regulated with WR ammo)

I also shoot 500 woodleighs with: Norma cases and Fed 215 GM primers.

My powder of choice is H4831sc.

I have gotten best regulation in the 104-106 gr range. Anything above 2050 fps crosses. best grouping has been around 2020-2035 fps.

(It sounds like your rifle might need the same range, I'd bet 102-108 gr H4831 would do the trick. Personally, I hate fillers and H4831 is slightly compressed at 106gr)



if you're interested, I also did some experiments with temperature sensitivity and have some data.

here's a copy/paste from one of my threads last year:

the velocities (at 50-60* F)with H4831sc:

102 = 2015 1.7"
104 = 2022 1.5"
105 = 2029 1.5"
106 = 2034 1.2"
107 = 2042 1.5" (?)
108 = 2050 crossed -2.0"


and



tolt - I've learned from Denton that a (temperature insensitive) powder can be predicted to be insensitive only in the cartridge it was originally designed for. Any other cartridge the powder may prove useful for is a crapshoot - may not be sensitive, may be a little or a lot sensitive.

Also, barrel temperature is the key - not ambient temp or ammo temp.

I shot yesterday at 98* barrel temp (measured) and the "good" load crossed -- badly.

We've run a series of experiments chronographing pairs of loads at different temperatures (45*, 56*, 58*, 98*) - about 60 rounds in all.

then Denton worked his magic with the statistical analysis.


the skinny on H4831sc in (my) 470 NE:

-no statistical difference between barrels
-STD Deviation of 31fps MV
-1 grain of powder increase = 33 fps increase

the biggie:

temperature coefficient of (1.4)fps/degree F >> raise temp 1 degree = raise velocity 1.4 fps

in other words, +/- 24* F = +/- 1 grain of powder


For example, if it should happen that your max charge is 108 grains at 32 F, and you want the same performance at 92 F, you've got a 60 degree difference and need to reduce the charge by 60/24=2.5 grains, putting you at 105.5 grains.*

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Dave

But what happens if you need to take a follow up shot at 100 - 150 yards ?

Have you tried all the options to stop it crossing at 50 metres - powder, primer, crimp / no crimp, seating depth etc etc

BTW - Have you tried speeding it up ?

500N:

I am sure that I can stop the crossing if I slow it down just a bit. I just don't want to slow it down below 2000 fps. I have tried faster loads but the groups just go all to hell. I think of a double as a compliment to a bolt. I guess with my old eyes, I wouldn't feel very comfortable shooting at long distance with my double.

Are you only looking at the Velocity ?

have you tried changing some of the other components
just to see what effect it has ?

Gents,
just an update on my rifle,it was decided that the gun was not properly regulated at the factory,the gun was sent to JJ at Champlin,just got the call today it's on the way back,re regulated with factory ammo,more than one load and also JJ's hand load,everything shot at 2100 plus fps,2 " @ 50,can't wait to try it out
The gun had a few other mods done to it before I sent it away,a new recoil pad was added,I also had the front trigger bent back just a bit,my finger does not hurt much anymore against the trigger guard like it used to.JJ turned this gun around back to me in record time,very happy with the service that I got on this from him and Chris at Heym USA

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Bal:

Probably won't work, but it's worth a try...work back up with 4831, starting with 96 grains, and watch the velocity. No filler. It might uncross 'em.

Jim took delivery of a new .450/.400 3 1/4" last weekend. At standard velocity with RL 15, it crossed 5 inches at 50 yards. With IMR 4831 at the same velocity, it uncrossed 'em and shot lights out. It's never worked that way in my rifles, but it sure did in that one. Worth a try.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mark the un-crossing at the same speed over the Crono, may be due to the inherent sharper recoil of IMR 4831 powder causing the barrel flip to be more or less! My 470 wants to cross with R-15 as well.
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Mac,
I agree with you on this,I experienced this in my O/U CZ 458 win mag,higher recoil resulted in tighter groups & less crossing.