Does anyone know where I can find the serial number ranges and associated year of manufacture for I Hollis and Sons double barreled rifles

Contact 400 Nitro.
He just might have that info.

Tim,

NE 450 No2 and I are going to go shoot our 400s this afternoon.

You could try a Webley and a Jeffery.

Let me know if you'd like to go. You would need to bring your 465 of course.

The British gun trade has it's own forums and they have a huge amount of Historical information in their Historical Database. You could also register there free and send them pictures of your gun for more information.

Cheers!

Thanks for the info guys. gal and NE 450 No2, I'll take you up on the offer one day. Haven't been around much on the weekends.

Regarding Hollis serial numbers, I was told once that their numbers were very high, and that the
numbers in the 57000 range corresponded to
around 1900. Does anyone have similiar numbers
and a rough idea of year built?

In regard to the particular rifle that I know Tim was asking about, George called me to ask this very question before he put it on the net. I wasn't able to help much.

From my notes, (Champlin's site seems to be down right now) the number on this I. Hollis .400 is 100,561. The gun bears 1904 rule Birmingham marks with no date code mark present, meaning that it was proved between 1904 and 1921. This gun is almost certainly pre-WWI.

I. (Isaac) Hollis and A. (Alfred B.) Hollis & Son were completely different gunmaking firms. To my knowledge, the records of neither have survived. I can help date the A. Hollis guns, but have done little research on the I. Hollis serial number scheme. Given the number and the proof period of this .400, it would seem highly doubtful that 57000 would correspond to 1900.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The 57000 Hollis has a cordite load stamped on
the flats. I wonder if the numbers were not
exactly in sequence, but were by some other
scheme. Roughly how are the A Hollis numbers
organized?

The marking of the Cordite load on British rifle could date the rifle to as early as 1887. The marking of a specific semi-smokeless propellant on the flats of a rifle proved for that propellant officially began in 1887, when the first official rules for Nitro proof were promulgated. Under these rules, Nitro Proved rifles were marked with the name of the Nitro powder used, the charge weight, and the heaviest bullet used in the normal load. The familiar Nitro Proof mark wasn't added until 1904. I'd be interested to know how this rifle was dated.

Although a few makers assigned numbers in blocks (Holland; Jeffery), most assigned numbers in sequence. While small jumps in serial numbers are common in many of the old records, I've never seen a large jump, but I suppose anything is possible. Many makers also numbered different types of guns separately, and it is not unusual for rifles to be numbered separately from shotguns. Given the very high number of the .400 here, it would seem unlikely that I. Hollis did this.

A. Hollis & Son numbers were assigned in sequence and had reached the 14xxx range by 1900. The numbers concluded at roughly 15,200 when the firm ceased to trade in during WWI.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I have a Isaac Hollis 500 NE serial number 108114

any ideas

I'm suprised at the 1887 date-I thought the only
early cordites were 303's, and that cordite for
doubles started around 1896. I'm still
learning. The gun was dated by guess work,
and by George, I'm told. I think Greeners also
had high numbers.

Just happened to think of this-Tony Sanchez Arino
speaks very highly of I Hollis doubles in his
book Ivory, and in other of his books. He used
a .577 Hollis for many years.

heres some data from the last Holts sale

†A. HOLLIS & SON .500 (3 1/4in.) NITRO EXPRESS BOXLOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no.15056, 24in. nitro chopperlump barrels with matt sight rib, open leaf sights for 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards, ramp mounted block foresight with lift-up moon sight, tubes engraved 'A.HOLLIS, LONDON RIFLE MAKERS TO H.R.H.THE DUKE OF CONNAUGHT', 3 1/4in. chambers, treble-grip action with removable striker bars, manual safety, action engraved with naïve depictions of elephants, buffalo and lion, scooped-backed action, 15 1/2in. well-figured pistolgrip stock including 1/2in. rubber recoil pad, cheekpiece, sling eyes, metal pistolgrip-cap, weight 12lbs. 10oz. in its leather case
The history of the weapon prior to 195 9/60 is unknown
The rifle was discovered in a cycle/gun shop called Tatos Brothers in the little farming town of Gwelo (now Gweru - Zimbabwe) in what was then Southern Rhodesia where it was offered for sale on behalf of a farmer (name unknown) and it was purchased by Mr. Paul Coetsee in 1959-60
Mr. Coetsee worked for the Game Department in Southern Rhodesia. His responsibilities included the control of problem animals and the control of the spread of the Tsetse Fly disease. Between 1964 and 1970 the .500 Hollis was to be used almost exclusively on elephant control in the then Southern Rhodesian Game department. On the southern banks of the Kariba Dam especially, elephant carriers of the Tsetse fly had to be controlled to limit the spread of the disease and in the Gokwe and Omay Tribal Trust areas, problems with bull elephant crop raiders kept the rifle in regular usage.
The .500 rifle became well known to VIP foreign guests of the then Prime Minister Mr. Ian Douglas Smith during hunting safaris conducted in the Gokwe area. Among the dignitaries was the late sir Archibald James from London whom hunted his last elephant (accompanied by Mr. Coetsee) at the age of about 80 years. The late Prime Minister, John Voster of South Africa and many dignitaries from the USA, Germany and South Africa were also accompanied during hunts using the same rifle
Of his rifle, Mr. Coetsee said 'the Hollis .500 served me well, having put down about 1000 elephants with brain shots, many buffalos and a considerable number of lions. Bull elephant that were shot with this rifle ranged from 50lbs. per side to 100lbs. per side.'
Please note VAT at 5% is applicable on the hammer price and buyers premium
See illustration on page 189 £8000-12000

As I posted over on NExprs I'd like to know if there are any numbers on the under rib near the barrel loop where the forearm attaches to the barrels.

Rusty

Saw Ron yesterday and the damn thing has gone off for re stocking already so no photos for now - and am off to Zambia wednesday so will go quite for a couple of weeks

Hollis

OK now have photos of flats, barrels etc of the Hollis - all in white and ready for work

How do I get photos on here??

Directions appreciated


Rusty

There are no nos on the under rib other than serial nos, the letters JS (Barrel and action maker I assume as JA appears inside action too) and an A&T stamped on the left barrel only

"A&T" is Adams & Tait (Arthur Adams & Joseph Tait), well known Birmingham barrel makers in the early days. They were listed in the Birmingham trade directory until 1920. They seem to have made a specialty of rifle barrels, as many, many Birmingham built double rifles have barrels signed by Adams & Tait.

"J.A" on a Birmingham gun is usally Joseph Asbury, an action maker who was later also a barrel maker. Asbury was listed in the trade until 1932.

You also mentioned the mark "JS". Did you mean to say that "J.A" is stamped in two places, or is the other mark on the barrels really "JS"?
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Here are pictures of the 500.

Currently, the London proof house usually removes the old marks from the flats. I wish they wouldn't do that. Here, they've only removed part of them.

The new London .500 3" NE marks are easy enough to see. The old 1904 rule marks (",500EX", "BV", "BP", "NP", "Cordite 80 - 570 MAX") are mostly there on the right barrel, but only the service load survives on the left, and ".500EX" is missing from both. Were this piece an original .500 Nitro, the service load mark would be an original mark. However, on the right barrel, it appears to me that "Cordite 80 - 570 MAX" is stamped over a previous mark. Impossible to say what was there, but the piece may have been through proof three times. This, combined with the very light for caliber weight (as discussed on the other board), makes me think that my original hunch that this was originally a BPE is probably correct.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

OK

So we have a potential BP (light weight) that was reproofed with 1904 nitro marks but made earlier.

We also have maker stamps (A&T and JA) from makers who stopped working in 1920 and 1932

Assuming they did 40 years in the business then we are somewhere in the 1880 - 1890 era

Is this consistent with a rifle made initially as BP before cordite was around??

Yes, that's the way it looks.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."