Hi All,

I'm going to scratch a long time itch and get that double rifle....finally.

Just about decided on caliber, 9.3X74R, which will fill my needs nicely.

What I'm looking for now is input on SXS or O/U pro/con.

Thanks for helping out.

I have had a Chapuis in 9.3 since the summer. I love it.

It is a SxS. I think the advantage of a SxS is that it is more traditional and faster and easier to load.

The OU are cheaper and they are sometimes lighter and trimmer than a SxS. The OU are sometimes better at long shots as they are usually regulated parallel rather than crossing like a SxS.

ENJOY

I have a Chapuis 9.3X74R double and a Bernardelli Express rifle (O/U) in 8X57JRS. I like them both. For DG I prefer SXS. I have seen and shot a 470 O/U that was very accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:
I have had a Chapuis in 9.3 since the summer. I love it.

It is a SxS. I think the advantage of a SxS is that it is more traditional and faster and easier to load.

The OU are cheaper and they are sometimes lighter and trimmer than a SxS. The OU are sometimes better at long shots as they are usually regulated parallel rather than crossing like a SxS.
ENJOY

Where do you get than from ?????????

Talk about sprouting utter BS on a forum.


BTW - At what range is Searcy going to have your Searcy 470 Nitro bullets crossing ???????

50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards ?

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:
I have had a Chapuis in 9.3 since the summer. I love it.

It is a SxS. I think the advantage of a SxS is that it is more traditional and faster and easier to load.

The OU are cheaper and they are sometimes lighter and trimmer than a SxS. The OU are sometimes better at long shots as they are usually regulated parallel rather than crossing like a SxS.

ENJOY

Honky, all double rifles are regulated parallel! A properly regulated double rifle shoots side by side, or over and under no matter the distance. They do not cross at any range.

If your SxS is crossing, you are probably at too high of velocity...back them off a little, and it should start acting right.
If your velocity is correct, then something has probably come loose in the rib/webbing.

On the original question, I think either O/U or SxS have their place. I just love the SxS looks and feel...they seem more natural to me.
ND

[/QUOTE] 500N Where do you get than from ????????? Talk about sprouting utter BS on a forum. BTW - At what range is Searcy going to have your Searcy 470 Nitro bullets crossing ??????? 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards ?[/QUOTE]


HOLY SHIT !!!

Talk about bad attitude and computer tough guy small man complex!!!


What happened to you 500N?? Did mum not give you enough kisses when you were a little nipper down in Kangaroo Land??


All I know is what I have seen. I own one double now, I have shot it quite a bit, I reload for it and I have killed a few animals with it. I have another one being built.

SO I MAKE NO CLAIMS AS AN EXPERT IN DOUBLE RIFLES!!!

I was told by Butch Searcy that HE regulates his rifles to shoot parallel.

HOWEVER I have seen MANY double rifles that are regulated to cross at a certain distance.

If you disagree with me that is fine. Even in Australia I believe you are entitled to an opinion. I am not spouting bullshit, this is the truth as I know it.

If someone who is more knowledgeable than me comes along and tells me that Chapuis double rifles are not designed to cross then I guess I stand corrected on the matter.

You can disagree without calling someone a bullshit artist as the other gentlemen on this forum have.

NOW go off and fuck yourself you ozzy wanker keyboard commando!!

Back to the original question, bigfats I own a Tikka (Valmet) which has several barrel sets, one of which is 9.3x74R. This is an O/U and is a wonderful rifle. There is a screw that helps you adjust the lower barrel for "regulation" purposes. I own a couple of SxS as well but in heavier calibers. Sometimes these are discussed in the Combination Guns and Drillings forum below.
Peter.

Have owned both SxS and OU in medium and large-medium bores,(OU's- 9.3x74, .458)

I agree with Rusty in than my OU's have been accurate-

and also agree that I prefer a SxS for DG.

My Valmet multi-barrel set (early production) has been a pleasure (in 4 calibres).

I have both SxS and O/U rifles and I like them both.
Each may have miner advantages over the other but nothing deal breaking.

For a lot of guys the whole idea of a double rifle is to capture the tradition and perhaps a little romance of the double rifle.

For those of us who grew up speaking the English language and reading the books of the old British African hunters it's hard not to add a little extra value and tradition to the side by side.

Hunters from other parts of the world will see just as much tradition in the O/U as the SxS. After all both configurations have been around since before breech loading doubles came on the seen.

For me a double rifle means two things. Hunting DG in Africa, and hunting driven boar in Europe. I haven't done the dangerous game yet but I sure have taken a lot of plains game on the dark continenant and the SxS sure felt right.

On the continant I've hunted driven game with both SxS and O/U and when I'm there the O/U feels as much like a natral part of the druckjaged tradition as the SxS.

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:

500N Where do you get than from ????????? Talk about sprouting utter BS on a forum. BTW - At what range is Searcy going to have your Searcy 470 Nitro bullets crossing ??????? 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards ?[/QUOTE]

quote:

All I know is what I have seen. I own one double now, I have shot it quite a bit, I reload for it and I have killed a few animals with it. I have another one being built.

SO I MAKE NO CLAIMS AS AN EXPERT IN DOUBLE RIFLES!!!

I was told by Butch Searcy that HE regulates his rifles to shoot parallel.

HOWEVER I have seen MANY double rifles that are regulated to cross at a certain distance.

Honkey, I don't want to get into your little donnibrook but you are incorrect in your opinion that any double rifle is regulated to cross at any range! That is simply not true.

I think what you are baseing your misconception on is, the way makers write thier specifications for their product.

In the double rifle maker's jargon, they use the word "REGULATE" is used for two different things. They write: "this rifle is regulated to 50 mtrs, or this rifle is regulated to 100 mtrs". This wording in their specitications is misunder stood to a lot of people. It only means the standing sight is regulated to be dead on at those ranges, not that the bullets cross at that range. The regulation of the barrels are regulated with a known load to shoot parallel, no matter the range. The other "regulation" is like zeroing your scope, or fileing in the iron sights on a single barreled rifle. They are only cut so the sights line up with where the rifle shoote at a given range. In the case of a double rifle the sights are positioned so that they point to a point that is exactly half way between the individual barrel groups for windage, and dead on for elevation, but still half way betheen the two groups.

When you are working up a load to shoot to the regulation of the barrels, if that bullets cross they will be low,and too fast! if they are shooting wide they will be high, and too slow!

Sorry but if you see someone shooting a double rifle that is shooting crossed, he has simply not developed the proper load for the rifle!

No need for name calling, by anyone here. What I have told you here are the facts, and you can accept them or disregard, that is your privelege.

....................

I have always wanted a Valmet 412 ST. (I think that's the model). Good heavy rifle/shotgun.
I'm jealous!

macd37.

What is to be done if barrel A is shooting properly and Barrel B is crossing?

Thanks

Honkey, I'm afraid 500 is right.

quote:

HOWEVER I have seen MANY double rifles that are regulated to cross at a certain distance.

Then you've seen rifles that didn't regulate properly with the ammunition being used in them, which is common, or were simply out of regulation. No quality double rifle, SxS or O/U, is regulated to cross-fire. Double rifles are regulated AT a given range. It's a popular misconception that they're intended to place both barrels on top of each other at that range, and thus, cross beyond that range. It simply isn't true.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bigfats,
Other than tradition, there's not a whole lot of difference between a double in SxS or O/U design. The O/U gives less clearance for loading cartridges in the bottom barrel, but that's more a factor with longer calibers like the 9.3x74R. Europeans have a long tradition with O/U doubles for the 2 quick shots they afford for driven Boar hunting, and where semi-autos are not permitted. Most O/U doubles are chambered for lighter cartridges, from 7x65R to 9.3x74R, where the SxS design seems to rule in the bigger African calibers. As a general rule, but varying by manufacturer and obviously build quality, the O/U seems to normally sell for less than a comparable grade SxS, but that may be more of a function of market popularity. Hope this helps...Biebs

MacD37 & 400 NE,

I guess I stand corrected.




Even a dumb ass like me can learn something new now and again.

My only objection to 500N was his manner of disagreement. If I am wrong I am wrong. Believing in an incorrect theory is not being a liar.

I AM NOT A BULLSHITTER

Now if I was telling everyone that my solid gold Holland and Holland double in 800 NE was regulated to cross at 100 yards by Agelina Jolie for me personally.....THEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO CALL BS

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:
MacD37 & 400 NE,

My only objection to 500N was his manner of disagreement. If I am wrong I am wrong. Believing in an incorrect theory is not being a liar.

I agree completely! However, 500N is a nice guy you too just got off on the wrong note in this duet! I don't think he meant to come off that strong, but I understand you anger. Computers are like that, they don't show the smile on some's face you would when stiing face to face. I have a very dirrect way of writing, and am often accused of being angry or agressive, when that was not the way my post was meant.

500N is very knowledgable where double rifles are concerned, and is worth listening to. Some of the Bravado, is simply born of the hardy people who live in Australia, they are hard folks, and a little brash on occasion, you know, kinda like us Texans!
...........Good shooting

quote:

Originally posted by bigfats:
macd37.

What is to be done if barrel A is shooting properly and Barrel B is crossing?

Thanks

I assume you are talking about a O/U double rifle. If so that depends if the rifle has adjustable regulation or not! If it does simply adjust the bottom barrel to to hit the target lower than the top barrel the same distance that is between the bore centers of the barrels at the muzzle end.

If it doesn't have adjustable regulation, the loads are too fast, and need to be slowed up usually only a tiny bit. You see this is a problem with O/U double rifles. The sights are mounted on one barrel, and because one barrel usually the top barrel shooting to the sights, only means the sights are wrong. Don't worry about the sights, just hold them on the same place till you get the barrels shooting parallel, then you adjust the sights to point to a spot that is half way between the individual barrel groups, at that range. Then the hold over will be the same for both barrels no matter the range.

O/U rifles are harder to regulate properly, because of the sights mounted on one barrel. On a S/S double rifle the sights are mounted between the barrels and so the aiming point is half way between the barrels, so that if the load is too fast the barrels cross aprox an equal amount, and will be low, either slow the load slightly, or increase the bullet weight slightly. Slowing the load is easier. Keep slowing the load to allow more "barrel time" (which is the time the bulet travels down the barrel befor it exits the muzzle) till the barrels shoot apart the same amount of the distance between the centers of both bores.

Honkey:

Sometimes when a popular misconception is posted as a statement of fact, some of us cranks sometimes react that way when we shouldn't. 500 is an extremely well informed man, and a nice guy. Don't worry about it. You're among friends here.
--------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Honk, No worry...you're on AR, the last great bastion of armchair pugilism!!!!!!!

Honkey,

OK, my reply was a bit strong, please accept my apologise for the manner in which it was posted.

As 400 says, some of us cranks come across a bit heavy in our replies.

Your post sounded so definitive and one of the things that gets me going is when forum myths are perpetuated and not corrected.

Maybe I should move to Texas, sounds like I'd fit in

To the others, Thanks for the kind words.

quote:

Posted 11 November 2009 23:08 Hide Post
Honk, No worry...you're on AR, the last great bastion of armchair pugilism!!!!!

Yup - around here we fight with pillows for 10 seconds and then retire to our neutral corners for 30 minutes of verbal abuse

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Honkey,

OK, my reply was a bit strong, please accept my apologise for the manner in which it was posted.

As 400 says, some of us cranks come across a bit heavy in our replies.

Your post sounded so definitive and one of the things that gets me going is when forum myths are perpetuated and not corrected.

Maybe I should move to Texas, sounds like I'd fit in

To the others, Thanks for the kind words.

Apology accepted. I must admit you caught me on a bad day and i did overreact.

Keep on keeping on!!

PS my favorite hats are Akubra

Honkey,
Looks like everyone has come to terms now. Don't lose sleep over it.
Last year 400Nitro was educating me on a similar situation, where mis-information had been printed so much that I was believing it. I got up on the wrong side of the bed, and bit his head off...not knowing that he is one of the most knowledgable DR men you will meet. Upon returning to the site that night, I found 2 pages of replies. Half the state of Texas had chewed my backside down to the bare tailbone... and I don't even like the Sooners! I felt like an ass...and apologized, as you have.
Bottom line is that 400 Nitro, Mac, 450 #2, Rusty, 500N, and a host of other very experienced gentlemen, forgave me and have been so helpful, in educating me with doubles. They have held my hand through some issues that were tough for me, but probably easy for them. I am grateful! They make far better friends than foe...
I came here with 25 years of reloading, wildcatting, and benchrest shooting, thought I was pretty sharp... Double rifles are a completely different science!!!!! You can however, learn everything about it here on this forum. I now have 3 of them, shooting 2.5" groups of 4 at 50yds. My Harkom 450BPE will do it at 100yds, and I couldn't even get empty rounds to chamber in it, when I started.

This is a fantastic site...because of the all men who post on it.
Best to you and all the nice gentlemen, here on AR.
ND

10-4

You know about a year ago if you told me about a guy who owned a double and was having a second one built and he didn't know some of the more basic principles of the ballistics of double rifles (such as doubles being NOT regulated to cross at any distance) I WOULD OF SAID THAT THAT GUY WAS A TOOL WITH MORE MONEY THAN BRAINS !!

I guess I am the above mentioned tool.


I do love this site and I have found it a great resource for my favorite passions in life, shooting, hunting and reloading. You are correct, it is the people and their wealth of knowledge that makes it great.

I have been having a great time with the one Chapuis in 9.3x74r that I picked up in the spring.

BTW it shoots under 1 inch at 50 yards with 4 shots and just under 2 inches with 4 shots at 100!!

So far I have killed a black bear an a coyote with it. If I am lucky, and I will have to be very lucky as the deer herd is scarce up here this year I hope to get a whitetail this year with it.

Thanks Again

Honkey,
Good luck on the deer hunt! Rifle season opens here on the 21st. I have lots of whitetails again this year. I plan to take one with my Searcy 470NE first...I have some light "deer" loads worked up with 400gr XTP's (that line kinda looks funny, when you see it in print)???
Then plan to take one with my 450BPE, but have to work the wife and kids hunts in. We'll see what happens...
Good luck to you!
ND

OK to lift my head up now? Wow!

Thanks for all the input guys.

quote:

Originally posted by bigfats:
OK to lift my head up now? Wow!

Thanks for all the input guys.

NO


bigfats,

That was mild, very mild.

Now you can lift your head up.

I have SXS and O/U doubles.

In a 9,3x74R, and up, I would prefer a SXS.

I have been using a Chapuis 9,3 for several years. It has been an excellent double.

Several members of the DRSS have Merkel 9,3's.
The ones I have shot shot good. I kinda like the light weight Merkes for a USA double.

Heym makes 9,3x74R's on 2 different frame sizes if I remember correctly. Both are very nice guns.

You cannot go wrong with a double in 9,3x74R, it is a great calibre.

ESPECIALLY WHEN SCOPED, with Quick Detach mounts.

I have played with a number of nice English SxS big bore rifles in the past and decided there were better rifles for my type of Alaskan hunting. However I have recently taken possession of one of the new Zoli Express O&U rifles in 450/400 ( they also make them in 9.3x74R ) and am re-assessing my original opinion. With a fully detachable, double trigger plate, a rust proof action and the ability to mount a scope on the quarter rib it looks quite promising. You can also get shotgun barrels ( 20ga on the 9.3 action and 12 on the 450/400)
You can check their web www.zoli.it

O/U's have a clearly bigger opening angle. I think

they look very elegant, scoped or not. My vote is

9.3x74R and smaller go O/U. .375 and up go SxS.