My go to load has been 87 GR R15 with the woodleigh softs or solids,my fmj's are still shooting well with this load,however my softs opened up to 4" or so.
Back at the range yesterday 90 deg temp,using a chrono this time,87 gr was only about 2030fps avg,89 gr about 2080 & group started to tighten up,so I am assuming that 90 gr load will get me back to regulation,I can only think that there might be some difference in the newer woodleigh or the batch that I am using now versus the bullets that I used several years ago when I first started shooting a 470?
Anyone else noticed this? I am using the same batch of powder.

I would guess the bullets are to the same dimensions, older or newer.

When I get variations in groups between solids and softs, I play with the powder charge and that has solved the problem. A gent just emailed me about his .450-400 and Woodleigh softs and solids. With an equal powder charge the solids will have higher pressure so I suggested he back off the powder charge 3-5% or so. I do this and it has worked every time.
Cal

Bal,

Are you using the same lot of powder as your earlier loads?
Many of the powders will have slightly different burning rates lot to lot.

Always a good idea to buy a 5# jug or several 1# bottles from the same lot.

It seems like 1-2 grains less powder for a solid will make a pretty good match for the softs, although your rifle may differ.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
It seems like 1-2 grains less powder for a solid will make a pretty good match for the softs, although your rifle may differ.

Or, from .450-400 up to .600, 3-5 grains.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
Bal,

Are you using the same lot of powder as your earlier loads?
Many of the powders will have slightly different burning rates lot to lot.

Always a good idea to buy a 5# jug or several 1# bottles from the same lot.

Jim,
Yes same lot of powder.

My bad, I missed that in your initial post Same brand of brass, same primers?

I wouldn't think it was the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would guess the bullets are to the same dimensions, older or newer.

When I get variations in groups between solids and softs, I play with the powder charge and that has solved the problem. A gent just emailed me about his .450-400 and Woodleigh softs and solids. With an equal powder charge the solids will have higher pressure so I suggested he back off the powder charge 3-5% or so. I do this and it has worked every time.
Cal

Cal,
This gun shot really well at 87 GR for both soft & solids,so I just left it alone,I am aware of pressure differences.
I would think you are right about the dimensions being the same between the older & the newer bullets,however I do not have any bullets left over from the old lot to compare them side by side,maybe the cannellure is not in the same location or perhaps the copper jacket has a different friction coefficient now?

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
My bad, I missed that in your initial post Same brand of brass, same primers?

I wouldn't think it was the bullets.

Yes on the brass,can't be sure on the primers,except same make,Federal,I will try it again with an unopened batch of primers.

Running out of options, crimp vs no crimp?

If that doesn't work, I would suggest maybe you are holding your double in a more limp wristed fashion!

I see that my voodoo hex for conning me out of the CZ is working. Excellent.

If there is a way to tell if the .470 Woodleighs I have are of the old variant, I would be happy to send you a couple to compare dimensionally with what you have now.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
Running out of options, crimp vs no crimp?

If that doesn't work, I would suggest maybe you are holding your double in a more limp wristed fashion!

I do not crimp the 470 rounds,the chrono is showing me lower velocity,then what I was used to seeing with 87 gr load,so something is causing the lower velocity,I am going to up the powder charge & see how it goes,
as for the limp wrist? there is more than just my wrist going limp nowadays I am 59 now

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I see that my voodoo hex for conning me out of the CZ is working. Excellent.

If there is a way to tell if the .470 Woodleighs I have are of the old variant, I would be happy to send you a couple to compare dimensionally with what you have now.

Mike,
you got a good voodoo witch doctor buddy,I wake up with strange pains all over my body nowadays,would you go easy on those pins that you keep sticking in my doll please? a voodoo hex & a dutch girl friend who thinks she is Joan of Arc & now my gun is shooting wide darn what next ha ha ha!!

Thanks on the offer on the bullets,lets wait & see how it shoots next time.

Bill73,
Since I am not familiar with your range or rifle, can you tell me:
1. at what distance are you shooting? 25, 50, 100, 200 yards?

2. What rifle are you shooting?
3. If a double, are both barrels showing the same divergence with the Woodie softs?

Cal said this above " A gent just emailed me about his .450-400 and Woodleigh softs and solids." Cal, was that gent shooting the .410 or .411 bullets?

I shoot the 400 grain .411 Weldcore RNSN and the .411 FMJ in both my .405 WCF rifles and have never seen any difference in POI between the two bullet types out to 50 yards. Beyond 50 yards, my eyesight is such that when shooting offhand, I am happy to keep 5 shots in an 8 inch circle at 100 yards.

Bill73, are you using a wad with that load? Just curious. I do for larger NE with RE15.

Cheers, Chris

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Bill73,
Since I am not familiar with your range or rifle, can you tell me:
1. at what distance are you shooting? 25, 50, 100, 200 yards?

2. What rifle are you shooting?
3. If a double, are both barrels showing the same divergence with the Woodie softs?

Cal said this above " A gent just emailed me about his .450-400 and Woodleigh softs and solids." Cal, was that gent shooting the .410 or .411 bullets?

I shoot the 400 grain .411 Weldcore RNSN and the .411 FMJ in both my .405 WCF rifles and have never seen any difference in POI between the two bullet types out to 50 yards. Beyond 50 yards, my eyesight is such that when shooting offhand, I am happy to keep 5 shots in an 8 inch circle at 100 yards.

in answer to your questions,

1, 50 yrds

2,a Heym sxs 470 NE

3,Yes

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Bill73, are you using a wad with that load? Just curious. I do for larger NE with RE15.

Cheers, Chris

Chris,
I use foam plugs that I cut out myself to fill the airspace,they are compressed slightly.

Thanks Bill.

Cheers, Chris

Ya just gotta to TRY them, that is the ONLY way you will know for certain, the rest guess and by gosh..and you must crimp 470s if you intend to hunt DG, the bullets can and will on many occasions go forward and stick in the riflings. Ive done that..

Today I trim by resizing die expander ball 1 to 3 thousands depending on chamber to hold the bullet tight, use IMR 4831 to fill the case to slight compaction and use a light crimp, a custom made taper crimp is more desirable..

This has worked very well for me over the years on all my doubles.

I might add that I have shot most of my game with a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2020 FPS in my .470. Its a Searcy and was regulated at 2245 FPS and recoil was horrendous so I backed off to 2020 where is also regulated, and I could see no difference in how it killed big animals and I shot it much better..

Have you miced the new batch of Woodleighs? Perhaps they are a little undersized compared to your old batch. They should run around .473 or 4 down to near the base where they will be .475 or should be.

465H&H

I shot both old and new, softs and solids, if you recall my gun was a super accurate gun to begin with and Butch set all kinds of records with it, including winning the world shoot with it, so it wasn't a touchy double as many are..That said all my doubles shot best with IMR-4831 or H4831, and by a good deal..RL-15 is supposed to give you less recoil Im told, but Ive never noticed the difference, the 470 just kicks, end of story IMO...If I were you I would try IMR-4831..

BTW, Butch moaned and growned until I traded it back to him for afancy new 450-400-3", and by golly it shot 4 shots everytime under 2.5 inches at 75 yards, just an inch more than the 470, good enough for an old buff hunter. I loaded it also with IMR 4831.

For those that don't know Bill73.
He is an avid shooter and reloader.
Has been to Africa several times.
And owns and shoots a lot of DRs

He knows a lot about reloading and shooting but is still open minded and will ask a question when he doesn't know the answer.

Bill my guess would be bullet variation, have you measured and weighed the new batch of bullets.

How old is the brass and how many times has it been shot and trimmed ? It may be getting thin and neck tension may be getting erratic.

Smell your powder , it may be same batch but may be going off, does it have acidic or acetone smell. I have some 4831 that has gone off.

Is your wadding material the same mass and density ?

All of these or a combination of a few can throw a load off.

Nitro

All good recommendations,I did not have any of the old bullets to compare against,will try a new batch of powder,thanks.

I think 470Evans nailed it with the limp-wristed suggestion :-)

Update,
I have just received my rifle back from JJ,the firing pin for the left chamber broke while I was working on my problem,JJ replaced the pin,checked my triggers,& checked for regulation issues,
he did not find any damage to the soldering or wedge etc,next he cleaned out the barrels with Barnes CR-10,evidently he got a fair amount of copper out from the barrels,he said there was a fair amount of copper fouling just in front of the chambers,he shot the gun with his handholds before & after,the gun now shoots less than two inches at 50 yards now,I have been cleaning this gun pretty regularly,I can only maybe think of one reason why this might have happened,I do use the speer gold dots 400 grainers for pigs & such,I have shot a lot of them,I do not think they are designed for the higher velocity of the 470,& are maybe leaving copper in the barrels,I will be using the Barnes Cr-10 every once in awhile now to clean out the barrels.
A special word of thanks to Chris at Heym,he was quick to respond & covered the pin repair under warranty.

I have some softs from around 2008 if you want some for testing would be happy to send them.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would guess the bullets are to the same dimensions, older or newer.

When I get variations in groups between solids and softs, I play with the powder charge and that has solved the problem. A gent just emailed me about his .450-400 and Woodleigh softs and solids. With an equal powder charge the solids will have higher pressure so I suggested he back off the powder charge 3-5% or so. I do this and it has worked every time.
Cal

What Call said!

.................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Smell your powder , it may be same batch but may be going off, does it have acidic or acetone smell. I have some 4831 that has gone off.

Nitro

The smell you get with fresh powder is ether and is injected into the powder can to preserve the powder. As Nitro450exp says, if that smell is no longer present the powder may be bad or at least weaker.

I've been smelling my powder for years, and that may be why I'm a little off kilter at times, but my powder works fine!

...................................................................

Mac

You sure that is powder you been sniffing!!!!

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Mac

You sure that is powder you been sniffing!!!!

Nitro

.......Well it was in a powder can!

Hi Bill73. Recap: Hyem 470NE dbl/load 87gr R15 with the Woodleigh softs or solids,fmj's still grouping but softs opened up to 4". At 90deg temp,87gr 2030 fps, 89gr 2080 group tightened up, 90 gr load results? "I can only think that there might be difference in the newer woodleigh or the batch that I am using now versus the bullets that I used several years ago when I first started shooting a 470? Anyone else noticed this? using the same batch of powder."

My thoughts: Reloading 470NE for my vintage (1911 mfg) Rigby I neck resized only and observed the brass expand and stretch so much that by 4 to 5 firings my loading density dropped to about 70% (if even that). I had to switch to RL19 and walk up charge weight to bring up loading density or else 1/3 case would be filled w the dacron pillow stuffing I use. My Rigby regulates with Woodleigh softs at 2140-2150fps i.e. on full throttle only. I don't shoot solids in the old girl so cannot help you there. (I used her at the Vintagers shoots in Queenstown Maryland you might have seen her running the stopping range there.) FMJs are operating at a bit higher pressure nearer regulation curve so maybe less group size change should be expected with them, but you didn't mention FMJ speeds w same powder weights cited compared to softs, or if you FL resize, or how many times each case fired, or what case brand, or your past regulation speeds, or barrel length, or OEM regulation load (brass, primer, powder and amount, and bullet) and associated speeds, all of which is potentially relevant to your issue.

Observation: 1) You increased powder charge tightening the softs group and 2) the low speed of 2080fps at 90deg despite 89gr R15 in the heat: both suggest that some case expansion is altering your powder burn and reducing bullet speed, as Nitro450exp suggested earlier, whether or not the Woodleigh softs changed at all. Not meaning to appear rude but I suspect the good news is that it is more likely that the problem is at your end than Woodleigh QC problem making bullets. Is why I maintain and archive a reference case and bullet from each new lot for comparison with subsequently fired cases etc. so I know my starting points.

Suggestions: Restart with new cases, consider weighed dacron tufts inserted hard with dowel instead of foam use, recheck Woodleigh FMJ and soft speeds and regulation over a quality chronograph with a proof channel. Eliminate variables. Personally I like a powder that nearly fills the case approaching 100% load density to minimize Dacron or foam being needed. Professional ballisticians tell me not to use any filler (no dacron stuffing nor foam). Use a suitable temperature insensitive (stable) powder e.g. from Hodgdon Extreme series. Consider FL resizing though it introduces more variables and work hardening, and cases will not last as long. Avoid annealing necks as despite my use of temperature paint and water bath and precautions, that is promptly afterwards when my cohort of annealed cases gave multiple case head separations (on top of 5 and 6 firings in two case groups with individually numbered cases... ok I was deliberately pressing the limits on number of case firings). Study your cases carefully inside and out before and after firings. The cases will tell you what is going on. Do not merely trim to a set case length. Study how your cases are changing. If your Hyem chambers are not CIP minimum/ or short enough consider a trick someone more experience than I suggested: placing (orthodontic) tiny rubber bands over case and rolled down to the rim to keep case head towards standing breech and tighten up the head space to reduce case stretching. (More applicable in older guns. Lube the hinge pin well if you use the bands.) Or do not shoot cases more than 3 firings. You will still get case expansion even then.
It has been a while so how did it all turn out?

The gun is fine now,please check my last post on this subject,about six posts up,thanks.