Palmer, I wanted to start this on a new thread.
I think a short bbled 400 woulod be a handy double.

What load did you settle on and what loads have you tried?

Also where do the right and left bbls hit with the load you use?

Mr.T

I'm glad you started this new thread because I wanted to talk about that rifle as well but I did'nt want to get into anything over there.

I think that short 400 sounds like a neat rifle. It seems to me that something that short though will be naturaly hard to regulate. I was actully told that by one of Marcel Tyes sons. This may be part of the problem Palmer is having but still seems like a really cool gun whithen it's limitations.

One thing I might add is I'm sure this would be a good rifle for lepard but when hunting them a scope comes in handy. That might be another thing to consider although you may not be interested in putting opticks on this nice vintage gun.

AK
I have been told that longer bbled double rifles were easier to regulate and more tolerant of shooting different loads well....

But I have some ideas for loads in short bbled doubles.

450 #2

If you want I'll mail you down a hack saw for your .400. We'll call it the stage coach elephant gun.

Tony and Akshooter,

Here is JJ's final target after he regulated it. His left and right shot is marked JJ. I also shot at this target but disregard those because it was my first time to shoot a double rifle and I was shocked that I even hit the paper. Mine were marked AJ



Here is a tracing of several targets that I shot. All these shots were on one trip to the range a week or so later than the regulation.

Both barrels were loaded the same.



The load JJ settled on was:
For my Jeffrey 450/400 3" regulated for 60 gr. coridite:
78 Grains of IMR 4831
400 grain Woodleigh soft and solids
Federal 215 primers
RWS brass

We only tried that one powder from 76 to 79 grains. I have never shot it thru my chronometer and have not yet tried other powders. I would appreciate anyones ideas as to what could be done to improve it. I have carried it into some pretty thick stuff after buff and it is incredibly quick. There have been a few times in the alders of Alaska that it would have felt good too.

Here is another picture that gives an idea of the barrel length. (I can hear our friend Rusty groaning from way up here in Missouri)

I hav not built any double Rifles shorter than 24 in. However i have built 2 cape gun with 20in bbls. One was 20x4570 and i am just finishing one in 12 gaugex4570. the shotgun bbls are smooth bore and both guns were regulated for Brennekes at 50 yds. I actually had less trouble regulating them than my double rifles with 24in bbls.12x4570

[IMG:left] [/IMG]
[IMG:left] [/IMG]

RD Show
your a terrible person posting pictures of that really cool gun. Now I want one more thing I don't need to be spending my money on. Don't you understand that I have entitled children who could have a Ipod or cell phone emergancy at any time.

Palmer

My first question is how long are you waiting between shots. The photo of your target looks a little like you might be shooting a hot barrel. The right barrel especialy seems to wander. I wonder if this is due to the barrels worming up.

Try waiting about 10 minuts between your r&l combo. Then report back. If that dos'nt do it NE 450 #2 has some ideas that I'll be interested in hearing about.

Palmer

I just looked at your posting again and I missed one thing.

What ever you do don't shoot the double through your chronometer. I don't think there is even one company in switzerland that honors there warranty if you put a 40 cal hole through one of there watches. I know I can't do it with my Breitlings.

If you need I'll loan you my chronograph.

Sorry just kidding I coulden't help it.

Aks, There are 3 different bullet weights in that target, a 300gr, a400gr and a350 gr all at diff velocitys for a reff. I only shoot through crono wheen testing loads, havent broke one in 30 yrs. ( i shouldn't have said that) Rich

Palmer,

What is the barrel length and weight of your 450/400?

Akshooter,
You are probably right about the hot barrel. I was wondering about that myself because they shot further apart as time went on.

Thanks for straightening me out about the chronometer / chronograph. However there isn't much danger of me shooting a hole in a chronograph - unless its taped on the end of the barrel.

AzGuy, The barrels are 19 1/2". I will have to weigh it tonite.

Palmer
When I look at JJ's target it says 77 grains for the powder charge.

In my 450/400 3 1/4" I use 81 gr of IMR 4831.
82 grains shoots worse but 83 shoots good, so I use 81 for less pressure.
No filler with IMR 4831.

I receintly started using RL 15 with a filler.
I recommend you start with say 68 or 69 grains and work up.
Do the 400gr Woodleigh Softs first.
Let me know how they shoot.

JJ's group at 50 yards is good. I am assuming you target is at 50 yards also.

AK shooter has a good point, ie heating up the bbls. I usually load 4 rounds with each powder charge, moving up one grain at a time. I shoot R/L, reload and shoot R/L.

When I am by myself I use 2 targets, one for the right bbl and one for the left bbl so I can shoot the 4 rounds in normal "game shooting time", without having to look and mark each shot thus letting the bbl heat build up in an unnatural way durring the 4 shot group.
Then as AKShooter suggest I let the gun cool completly down befor the next four.

Do your testing at 50 yards, then I test my best load at other distances.

I do not expect, or try to make a double shoot like a scoped bolt gun does off a bench.

In fact I suggest you take a scoped bolt gun to the range and shoot it at 100 yards from say kneeling, no bench, and then shoot your double.

When I do this It is hard to tell which target I shot with my 450 No2 and a scoped 458 Win Mag.

Let me know how the RL 15 shoots, just be sure and use a filler, either COMPRESSED dacron or a COMPRESSED foam plug.

You can cut out the foam plug with a .50 cal sharpened [with chamfer tool].

Thanks for the ideas Tony. I will try them and let you know what happens. I appreciate your assistance. Maybe I can get loose to bring it down to Brady this June.

Yes my target was at 50yds and you are also right that JJ was shooting 77 grains. I was shooting 78 grains.

AzGuy - the weight is 10 lbs 2 oz.

Palmer. Give those loads a try, and let me know how thay shoot.

I think a 450/400 is one of the beat double rifle calibres for the modern man.
I have taken deer to pigs, and black bear, buff to elephant with mine... As well as lion.

When you get your best 400gr load I have some 300gr loads for you as well.

R D Show
That 45/70x12ga Cape Gun looks like about as fine of a "bumming" around the deer lease gun as a fella could get.

And that is a compliment, as I like the 12 ga and the 45/70. Would also be great for hunting black bear over bait, when grouse are in season as well.

It is a shame such a gun is not avialable on the market for a reasonable price.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
In my 450/400 3 1/4" I use 81 gr of IMR 4831.
82 grains shoots worse but 83 shoots good, so I use 81 for less pressure.
No filler with IMR 4831.

I receintly started using RL 15 with a filler.
I recommend you start with say 68 or 69 grains and work up.
Do the 400gr Woodleigh Softs first.

Allen:

I hate to disagree with Tony (he's a good friend), but he's loading for a 3 1/4", and yours is a 3". Yeah, I know, there isn't supposed to be any difference, but there usually is.

Note that Tony is using 81 to 83 grains IMR 4831 with 400 grain bullets in his 3 1/4". When Hornady was developing their new .450/.400 3" ammo, they tested IMR 4831. With 400 grain bullets, 82 grains IMR 4831 gave 2150 fps in 24" barrels at 44,000 PSI. CIP maximum permissable average pressure for the 3" is 40,610 PSI. The 78 grains IMR 4831 load you're using now is likely very close to max.

I've never had good luck with 4831 in the 3". I agree that you should try RL 15, just don't start at 68 grains. With the last two batches of RL 15 I've used in my 3", I maxed out at 68 grains. I wouldn't start any higher than 64 grains, and work up.

Keep the low max pressure in mind. You'll have no conventional pressure signs when you reach proof pressure, let alone max average. You can't use pressure signs as a guide. The only window you have is the chronograph so use it, and stop adding powder when you reach standard velocity as adjusted for barrel length. Standard velocity is 2,125 in 30" barrels. Late run factory Cordite does 2,060 - 2,070 in 26" barrels. My current load of 68 grains RL 15, 2 grains Dacron, and 400 Woodleighs gives 2,070 fps in 26" barrels, and regulates perfectly. Hornady's new ammo does 2,050 fps in their 24" CIP spec barrel. I don't know what to tell you to to expect from 19.5" barrels. My best guess would be 1,950 or so.

Hornady's new factory ammo is due out this month, so you might try some of that when it becomes available.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Allen
I would never disagree with 400 Nitro as he is a cornucopia of knowledge when it comes to double rifles.
If you start with his load recommendations you will surely be on the safe side and at the worst only shoot a few more bullets and a few more grains of powder than I have recommended, but will be on the safe side, which is ALWAYS a good thing when it comes to double rifles.

If you look at the 400 3" case and compare it with the 400 3 1/4" case one would think the 3" case would have lower pressure with the same loads, but several sources seem to indicate otherwise, so 400's advise is worth taking.

So start low and work up, let us know what happens... If RL 15 does not work I have some thing "radical"[based on your short barrels] for you to try.... But I need to know exactly how the RL 15 loads shoot, right vs left bbl, from the starting load to the last load.

Allen
Something you might consider is ordering some ammo fron www.superiorammo.com

I have shot their ammo in all 3 of my doubles and find it shoots pretty good [actually really good].

I would be curious to see how it shoots in your short bbled 400.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Palmer:
Tony and Akshooter,

Here is JJ's final target after he regulated it. His left and right shot is marked JJ. I also shot at this target but disregard those because it was my first time to shoot a double rifle and I was shocked that I even hit the paper. Mine were marked AJ





Help! Anybody know where I can get some of these targets? I've been searching for a while.

quote:

Help! Anybody know where I can get some of these targets? I've been searching for a while.

That target was developed by JJ Perodeau at Champlin Firearms inc. 580-237-7388

I have a copy that I could make duplicates of but would not without his permission. He might send you one if you call him - OR if he said it was ok I would send you one.

Palmer

Did you ever try any RL 15?

Tony,
I shot 4 rounds at 65 gr of RL15 and 2 grains of Dacron. It shows some promise. My chronograph was on the blink so I do not have that info.

Now that the chronograph is back I have loaded 4 more at 66 to shoot. So I have not got through the full range yet.

I also ordered a dozen rounds from Larry at Superior at 64,67 and 69 grains.

If those dont work I am going to mail it down to you to figure out.

If you cannot get it figured out I will be happy to help test some loads, but DO NOT mail it, mailing double rifles scares me badly.

I am fixing to move, when I get settled in you can drive it down and we can load and shoot till we get it right.

How do your IMR 4831 loads shoot at 100 yards?

Driving down sounds great.

I have never shot it at 100 yds. I did shoot a buffalo at about 75 yards but who knows - the shot probably bounced off a rock or something and hit him totally by accident.

Thanks Allen, I'll give JJ a call and let you know the outcome.

Antlers,
Good. If he says its ok I will send you and anyone else that wants one a copy. You can make additional copies off it as needed.

OK, but all you hanyocks be advised that if Palmer ever departs with that stubby gun, it goes to me, I put my name in the hat many years past!! Actually I found that gun for him..

Allen, I missed JJ twice this week. I'll try again next week.