Snowwolfe

6 Grains difference but bugger all change in the crossing and only a small amount in the Height.

Interesting as the velocity should be quite a lot lower.


.

Hornady velocity is quoted as being 2,050 fps with 81.5 grains of H4831.

I was shooting 74 grains of the same powder, same bullet, and loads are crossing by 3 inches at 50 yards. With 80 grains of IMR4831 they were crossing by the same amount, but shooting 10 inches high.
(Shot 4 rounds of 74, and 4 of 76 to verify)

The only thing that changed by dropping from 80 grains of IMR 4831 to 74 grains of H4831 was I lost about 2-2.5 inches in height, but it is still shooting about 7.5 inches high.

Snowwolfe: Without a chronograph it's going to be tough to get to where you want to be. Your statement the gun does not appear to be regulated with Hornady ammo is well, nonsense.

I don't see anywhere here where you've fired the rifle with Hornady factory ammo. If you haven't I recommend you start there. Also, just because the Hornady factory equivalent load of "X" grains doesn't mean squat. They load to velocity and not by powder weight. For example, I called and obtained Hornady's factory equivalent loads for my 450NE and it stated 95gr H4831 I believe. I also took one of their factory rounds apart and guess what? That load metered out to 91.3gr and it gave me almost 2100 fps. When I loaded the same weight charge of H4831 using my powder, velocity was around the 1900 fps mark.

I recommend you spend the 80 bucks for a factory box and shoot some factory ammo first, chronograph it and go from there. I'd also call Hornady and ask them wht powder they use and I'll bet it ain't IMR. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Another trip to the range today and decided to start really low.
74 grains of H4831, Fed 215, Hornady 400 DGX.
Shot eight rounds and all eight crossed by about three inches and were 7-8 inches high.
Still have some more playing around to do but at this point am thinking the rifle was not regulated with Hornady ammo as requested, the barrels are exceptionly "fast", or something is amiss with the rifle.
Will post more information after another range trip, hopefully tomorrow.

So it made no difference shooting offhand? Damn, I was hoping that was the solution.

You would definitely benefit from hard data with a chrono.

Good luck in sorting it out.

Doc: He needs to first shoot the rounds the rifle was regulated with, i.e, Hornady FACTORY ammo and check the velocities, THEN reload to whatever charge of powder that corresponds to. All he is doing right now is launching lead downrange.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Doc: He needs to first shoot the rounds the rifle was regulated with, i.e, Hornady FACTORY ammo and check the velocities, THEN reload to whatever charge of powder that corresponds to. All he is doing right now is launching lead downrange.

100% agreement!

Agree re Factory ammo.

It's times like these that a chrony really shows it's true worth, a drop in powder of
6 grains without much movement.

.

Going to chrono a couple of rounds today for a starting base point.
Interesting, neither my Seacy nor Chapuis required any indepth tinkering.
For the first time in my life I will have to buy a box of centerfire ammo. Problem will be finding it up here.

Since we are on the subject of factory ammo, has anyone here chronoed Hornady ammo? If you have, what were the speeds?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Going to chrono a couple of rounds today for a starting base point.
Interesting, neither my Seacy nor Chapuis required any indepth tinkering.
For the first time in my life I will have to buy a box of centerfire ammo. Problem will be finding it up here.

Since we are on the subject of factory ammo, has anyone here chronoed Hornady ammo? If you have, what were the speeds?

Snowwolfe,

I found the DGX ran more than 350fps faster than DGS out of my V-C. 2,185 vs. 1,826fps.

Crazy, huh?

quote:

Since we are on the subject of factory ammo, has anyone here chronoed Hornady ammo? If you have, what were the speeds?

I chronoed factory Hornady 450/400 DGX at 2040-2050 fps from a 24" Sabatti and a Ruger #1. The load I used to emulate the factory ballistics was 80.5 grains of H4831 SC loaded at 3.675" OAL with a 400 DGX, Hornady brass, F215 primer and a crimped bullet. It gave 2051 fps. Crimping adds 60 fps and is required to produced the most consistant loads.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Going to chrono a couple of rounds today for a starting base point.
Interesting, neither my Seacy nor Chapuis required any indepth tinkering.
For the first time in my life I will have to buy a box of centerfire ammo. Problem will be finding it up here.

Since we are on the subject of factory ammo, has anyone here chronoed Hornady ammo? If you have, what were the speeds?

Snowwolfe,

I found the DGX ran more than 350fps faster than DGS out of my V-C. 2,185 vs. 1,826fps.

Crazy, huh?

That is amazing! How did both loads shoot in the same rifle with that much difference in velocity?

You have my brain thinking in overtime right now......wondering if my rifle was regulated for the DGS loading. Headed to the range in a few minutes. Reduced the load to 70 gr of H4831 to see if that stops the crossing. Will report back later.

Ammoloader, thank you. Very good information.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Going to chrono a couple of rounds today for a starting base point.
Interesting, neither my Seacy nor Chapuis required any indepth tinkering.
For the first time in my life I will have to buy a box of centerfire ammo. Problem will be finding it up here.

Since we are on the subject of factory ammo, has anyone here chronoed Hornady ammo? If you have, what were the speeds?

I'm sure the Searcy folks gave you loads to try and I'm sure they told you the load it was regulated for, just like VC did and their's is with Factory ammo as you requested.

Virtually every internet outlet has them for sale. Cheapest place I found was "Cheaper Than Dirt" for about 80 bucks. That is CHEAP.

Here, just because I hate this Flail-Ex, I called Hornady and here is what they load, keeping in mind the VaRIATIONS in powder lots:

Bullet: Hornady 400gr DGX
Case: Hornady
Powder: H-4831 81.5-82.3 gr MV 2100-2150 24" Ruger #1
COL: 3.685

jorge,
According to Ken, VC will only regulate rifles with factory ammo. I did not have a choice in the matter as Ken told me the factory does not reload. Doesnt really make a difference to me as the rifle should shoot reasonably well as long as my reloads approximate the factory velocity. That will be found out soon enough.

Already knew the factory load data, and my rifle does not like it at all.

Unfortunately shipping ammo to Alaska one box at a time is not cost effective. I'll find a box somewhere.

Just for the heck of it, going to load up a couple to factory specs and chrono them as well today.

So if the VC folks only load with factory ammo what else could it be? Kynoch? I'd be interested to see the loads you have that are loaded to specs, actually chrono like them. Given your POIs reported, I'm betting you are at or below 1900 fps. How is the factory target and what does it say as far as regulation? I'd spring for the factory bullets and fgo from there, I mean what do you have invested 12-13K?

Test target says Hornady ammo, 400 grains, nothing more.
But it should go without saying the rifle should be regulated with soft points unless requested otherwise.

of course! I believe softs is what they use. Hve you asked Ken?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Have you asked Ken?

I was thinking the same thing. Ask Ken and ask him to ask the Factory.


Or send the gun back to Ken to see if he can get it to shoot.

It's always good to get someone totally independant to shoot it
if you are having problems, just to eliminate you as the problem.

.

Back from the range. Chrono'ed what Hornady stated they loaded which was 81.5 grains of H4831, 400 grain DGX, Fed 215. No change, crossed and high. Velocity was 1,987 fps for 3 shot average.

Since EVERY load I have tried in this rifle has crossed, I dropped the load to 70 grains of H4831. This load clocked at 1,642.
Shot 8 rounds at 50 yards, 4 from each barrel. The left barrel shot 3.5 inches to the right, the right barrel shot 3.5 inches to the left. Both barrels shot about 6.5 inches high.
Group for the right barrel was a tight 1.5 inches, left barrel group was about 2.5 inches. Decent accuray from each barrel which is further evidence it is not my lack of shooting ability.

I have tried loads that were supposed to be faster than the Hornady load, and many that were slower. In every case the loads crossed by a wide margin and shot anywhere from 6.5 to 10 inches high. There is no way in hell a load clocked at 1,642 should cross.
If you are beginning to think I am getting pissed you are correct. And before anyone tells me it is my technique I also took my Searcy 450 NE with me today. Shooting full throttle 500 grain loads off the same padded bench at the same target the group size for all 8 rounds was about 2.5 inches. Might of been smaller because I still need to go up 1 or 2 grains for the final load. Both the Searcy and Verney Carron were supported only by my hands.

Ordered a box of Hornady DGX ammo from my dealer today at a cost of $97 to prove it isnt the ammo. Am 99% certain the money is just being wasted as I have shot loads slower, about the same, and faster than the Hornady ammo and in every case they crossed at 50 yards.

If Verney Carron has any credibility at all they will reimburse me for the ammo and return shipping to have this rifle fixed. If a miracle occurs and the factory ammo shoots great then I will eat crow and freely admit it was shooters error on my part. But I wouldnt be posting this if I didnt think the rifle was not regulated properly. And now I am wondering how they got that beautiful test target with the 1 inch group at 50 yards.

Still want to add a 500 NE to my collection within 18 months and how this situation pans out will determine if the 500 is another VC or a Searcy.

If it'd help any I'll meet you at the range Sat. afternoon or Sunday for a few shots to give it a try. IF you bring a dry towel to wipe up the drool.....

I am sure the rifle will magically quit crossing if you try it. I really dont give a shit how it shoots for someone else, it has to shoot good for me.

I am not going to waste any more money in components on this rifle. Already blew through $100 in bullets plus the powder.

If you can cancel your order, I'd be happy to send a few Hornady factory DGX 450/400.
Mike

I am convinced this gun does not have a regulation problem and since you "really dont give a shit how it shoots for someone else, it has to shoot good for me" I have a better idea, cancel your order for the ammo, pack the gun back up and take it to post office tomorrow and unless you have done something ugly to the gun while it was in your possession I will refund you purchase price and cost of postage. End of story and we both move on.
This is a limited time offer, send it back tomorrow or Monday at the latest and email me the PO registration number.

Seeing you never shot it, and I have put about 100 rounds through it that is a bold statement that you are positive it does not have a regulation problem.

Thank you for your offer. I will have it in the mail on Monday. There is not one mark on the rifle. It will be returned in the condition received. Was just hoping the rifle be re regulated as it is really nice. But perhaps a refund is the best way to go as my confidence level in the rifle is zero at this point in time.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I am sure the rifle will magically quit crossing if you try it. I really dont give a shit how it shoots for someone else, it has to shoot good for me.

Snowwolfe

I didn't suggest to get someone else to shoot it withoutvery good reason - and it wasn't to rile you up.

EXAMPLE - A guy here had 2 English 450/400's. One he said didn't shoot, the other was "iffy" as he didn't know the load. He wanted to sell them but couldn't give people an answer re did they shoot because for him they didn't shoot.

One day at the range, a mate picked up the gun and double tapped it. 2 Side by Side holes in the target as they should be. I did the same. The other gun showed potential and I took it away, did some load development and got it shooting. He CONFIDENTLY sold the guns quite quickly because they both shot well.


Now, if you had a Sabatti, I wouldn't bother wasting my time but we know VC know how to make good guns and don't sell crap so obviously something just isn't right.

I only suggested it as when problems exist, regulation is a process of elimination and one of the possible problems CAN be the shooter which is why I suggested it.


However, in view of your other posts, I do believe it is not you !!!

.

Could this rifle have been regulated with a scope fitted?

Have no idea. It was ordered with the scope mount. But Ken told me the reason it took so long to be built was that it had to be re regulated after it came back from bluing.

It would be nice to know how this rifle shoots for someone else to remove possible shooter error. Very few people are good enough to NEVER have a bad day at the range. I have benefited from qualified instruction when I didn't have good technique and had poor results with a good firearm.

Is this rifle a "lemon"? You've got my curiosity up. If the problem isn't the rifle, why would the Searcy you mentioned perform any better?

So if you are sending it back does that mean its up for sale Ken!!!!!! more than happy to have a go at it