The recent Northfork threads reminded me of an email response I got from them a while back. In response to this question:

"I'll be taking delivery of a Heym double rifle in 450/400 in a few days and have had great success with your bullets in my other rifles. I see that you will soon have 400gr bullets in 416. Why are you not making 400gr bullets for the 400NE?"

I got the following response:

"Because of the style of our bullet, a 400gr .411 would be rather long, long enough to really start to limit case capacity thus preventing the ability to push the bullet fast enough for dangerous game. Our 360gr. will serve you much better in that cartridge. We decided to create the 400 because of the increasing popularity of the very large .416s, i.e. Rigby, Weatherby, and .500-416NE. These cartridges have the capacity to push a longer style bullet without sacrificing velocity.

We have proven time and time again that our bullets will outperform any on the market and if deeper penetration is wanted, drive them faster (within safety limits for a given cartridge).

Please keep submittting requests. While we have many offerings we are always looking for new challenges especially if it makes sense. I hope I have answered your question.

We do have 360s in stock and will custom build solids in that caliber.

If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to call or write.

Regard,
North Fork"

Does this make any sense at all? I would think a longer bullet in the 400 3" or 3 1/4" would be an advantage, i.e. relative to the use of wads. Am I crazy for thinking that there is no way the 400gr would be too long to creep into the avg load - particularly with RL15? This sounds to me like they were just blowing smoke. Maybe Mike Brady will help me understand.

Just speaking for myself here as I am no longer affilitated. "Back when", I did take a look at the 411-400 solid. They were incredibly long. Length, in itself, "might' cause problems even without considering case capacity. Doubles are not noted for having twist rates on the tighter end of the spectrum. That leads one to wonder if such twists would stabilize bullets longer than standard. One might also wonder if such a long bullet would stay stable on penetration. Anyone that has ever dealt with me knows that I always leaned to the conservative side of things and to me, it wasn't worth the risk, especially since I had proven without a doubt that SDs of 300+ were more than enough for the job but also knowing full well, that would not placate the doubles folks that wanted traditional weights. At the time of those investigations, the 450-400 world was not as organized as it is now. The standards were not as locked in as now with the participation of Hornady. I had received many slugs from customers with original rifles that had barrel dimensions that were all over the map. No one size would ever work in all those rifles that had variances of over .003". Ultimately, it was the hassle of those dimensions that soured me on the project. And it wasn't like I didn't have other things to be doing. Maybe, with the 450-400 world more stable and more new rifles coming into the market, it might be time to go back and either proove or disprove my original concerns. Whether that happens or not, it would be wise for anyone that wants solids (of any weight) with an original double to send a slug to the factory for proper sizing. From past experience, it does not work for you to measure the slug or to have someone else do it. That is too many middlemen. The slug in the hands of the man in charge of making the bullet AND is using the same measuring equipment that will also measure the slug, is the only fool proof method to make certain of proper barrel/bullet fit. Hope that ramble helps.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Doubles are not noted for having twist rates on the tighter end of the spectrum. That leads one to wonder if such twists would stabilize bullets longer than standard.

John just made some 400gr cup points for me, and he shipped them earlier this week.

Give me a couple of weeks, and I'll let you know how they work.

I'm optimistic.

Hey, if you want them bad enough just pony up the money and get them through a custom order.

A long .411-.408 bullet should not bother any of us using RL15 and filler in our double reloading. I have a Cordin .408 sizing die and it makes quick work of .411 bullets for my .408 450/400 3inch!

I'm one of those guys who believes that a long bullet will improve penetration! Who, among us, has heard of a .408-.416 anything that had a poor reputation for penetrating? They have a great rep!

As long as they are a bonded lead core bullet, bring 'em on!

Just my opine!

Thanks for the response Mike, I appreciate your insight. Maybe the guys will reconsider.

Will, ponying up was not the issue. Why move forward if the bullet won't work? I'm just trying to figure out if what they were saying had merit. According to Mike it may.

Chris, plz keep us posted on the cups. I was more interested in the softs, but the cups might be perfect for some of my applications.

Here they are in today's mail.

They are a bit longer, but not as much as I was expecting.

Even with the bulky H4831, I don't see them eating up enough case capacity to matter.

This one weighs 400.9gr.



400gr Hornady RN, 400gr Swift, 400gr NF CP

Let's see how they shoot!

Chris, these are .411?

I should hope that they are .410 or less since that what the Hornady bullets are and the Ruger barrels are (?).

There was talk of the NF 500 gr. 470 bullet not being stable for a while but it was stable and penetrated like nothing else.

The difference between a 370 gr. and 400 gr. bullet where the lighter bullet is stable and the heavier bullet isn't just doesn't make much sense to me. That 8 or 9 % just can't be that significant.

But maybe we'll find out.

The only problem with stability of the 470s was when I got talked into making them .474. The original ones were made .475 because I called Butch and he said his barrels ran .475+. Virtually all the slugs I received were also closer to .475 than they were to .474. No one ever had a problem with the 475 bullets. The 474s sucked and were quickly dropped and the diameter returned to .475. That was the last time I listened to "experts". I can say this now because I am no longer in the business but in doing business, the customer is always right but, in truth, "sometimes" the customer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
Chris, these are .411?

I haven't measured them, but I can tell you that NF studied the published 450/400 3" CIP specs before they built them, and they built them to work in CIP rifles.

I have some and they are .411.

Gary
DRSS NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

The new ones are CIP spec and are .410 to fit those barrels that are that dimension. If a rifle is very far off that dimension, it will require a custom made diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
The new ones are CIP spec and are .410...

Yes, the box is so marked.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
A long .411-.408 bullet should not bother any of us using RL15 and filler in our double reloading. I have a Cordin .408 sizing die and it makes quick work of .411 bullets for my .408 450/400 3inch!

I'm one of those guys who believes that a long bullet will improve penetration! Who, among us, has heard of a .408-.416 anything that had a poor reputation for penetrating? They have a great rep!

As long as they are a bonded lead core bullet, bring 'em on!

Just my opine!

The problem for this with the North Fork, that swageing will take away the pressure rings, and make them unacceptable for a double rifle.

I received 5 of them and they miked at .411.....but I'll try a different micrometer to see. They were in a plastic bag so no markings.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Gary - are you talking about the 300 & 360gr softpoints? They are supposed to be .411 per NF specs.

5 FP's, Chris. I talked to them a couple of months ago....I met the gent in Zambia last year. But you are correct, the 360 gr are .411....but my FP seem to measure that too. I loaded them up in my Hornady cases but haven't spent time at the range yet.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Chris....sorry....cups, not FP.....been too many late nights. I WANTED some FP's....but cups only. Beta test I guess....same as you.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Gary

I think these very new ones are the result of going strictly with CIP specs and that has just happened in the last couple weeks. Chris supplied the CIP data. So .410 and the 400 grains are of very recent production. More recent than what you have.

Mike/Chris....could be the situation. I got mine probably first-second week of July....or thereabouts. I had talked to Andy about 450/400 bullets for some time beginning last year. We both have 404 Jeffs and he saw my 450/400 while in Zambia....told him the FP/CP solids by NF were my favorite for doubles. I can pull one if needed to check it out?
Hope I haven't started something!!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I have an email conversation with North Fork this past spring and per them they do manufacture the cup point and FN solids in .410 to CIP standard; .400” bore and .410” groove diameters. They also noted that the greatest issue they face with the 40 caliber is that the groove diameters can run from .405” to .413” in diameter. Their recommendation was to slug the barrel and provide them specs when ordering and they’d assure that I received 40 caliber bullets that matched my barrel.

Regarding Rusty die sizing the .410” cup and FN solids to .408” groove diameter; it should be no issue if his bore diameter is no smaller than .400” diameter. A phone call or email to North Fork could easily resolve the issue though.

I recollect Gerard from GSC responded earlier this year regarding his .410” diameter hollow point and FN solids that his testing indicated no increase in pressure levels when firing the .410” band diameter bullets in a .400” bore/.408” groove barrel as the shank diameter is the critical diameter to match in a banded solid and that the extra .002” band diameter of his bullets easily fold back into the banded grooves along the bullet shank.

The "standard" bullet weight for the 450 No2 is 480 grains.

My 450 No2 also shoots Hornady 500gr and Swift A Frame 500gr bulets great.

When I got the NF Solids from Mike they weighed 450 grains.

I had no regulation problems, I just upped my RL 15 load one grain.

Even though they weighed less than the 480 Round Nosed Solids, they penetrated much deeper.

It is well known that barrels for the original British 450/400 3" and the 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Exress Magnum are "all over the map".

If I remember correctly there was at least one double rifle that had one .408 barrel and one .411 barrel.

And yours was smack dab in the middle

Anything yet on these Chris?

So I guess that you would take the corsponding driving band bullet (360 NF=to 400 grain woodleigh) and use about the same powder charge to achive regulation?

I'd like to try some of these bullets (NF,S&H,GS custom) but where to start.

NFMike

Do you think the new made to CIP Specs. NF Solids/Cup Points would be safe in my 450/400 3 1/4"??

I ask him because he measured slugs from my barrels.