Hi folks,

So, with the day off, I went out to the range this afternoon, taking my N.I.B. Merkel .470 with me. Having never shot a double rifle before, I dropped a couple of cartridges in, rested my forearm against a pole and squeezed off a shot. The recoil pushed me back a step and twisted the fore end out of my hand. I hadn't expected that much recoil and was happy I'd decided to use the rear trigger first, to reduce the odds of a double. A little rattled, I openned the action and the ejector on the left barrel sent a case over my shoulder. Well, back into the saddle, so I closed the action, assumed the position and squeezed the front trigger (twice actually, forgot the safety the first time). Click. After the dud round drill, I openned her up and the ejectors sent an empty case from the right barrel over my shoulder. Well, that explained the recoil, I'd doubled on the first try. Completely rattled, I shot a group with my .22 and went home. I stiffenned up a bit on ride home and am a bit sore at the moment.

Since the ejectors only spit out one case after the first try and as I had used the back trigger first, I'd say I didn't hit the other trigger. I'm assuming that the firing pin on the right barrel didn't move back with the recoil at the same pace as the rest of the rifle and the primer struck it with enough force to set that cartridge off too.

I suspect that once this rifle gets checked out and fixed up, I'm going to have a bit of a flinch to deal with and gaining enough confidence witht he gun to take it to Africa will take a lot longer than I'd planned. Not a real good start to my double rifle shooting carreer.

Dean

Well, there is a bright side. The recoil from shooting the rifle will be well within your "tolerable" range when its squared away. You know this because you have withstood twice the recoil!!! And the rifle didn't do back flips, your not bleeding and you stayed upright!!!

JPK

Stick to your guns...

Well, yes it is possible to find a few bright spots that aren't just spots dancing in front of my eyes. Does some one have a link to a recoil calculator handy. I'm curious and have misplaced the link I've used in the past.

Dean

Dean,
If you shoot doubles much, this is bound to happen...sorry it was on your first experience. I recomend you do some additional shooting with one live round in the chamber and a snap cap in the other. It will allow you to isolate the problem. Do this from both barrels until you feel confident there is no issue with the rifle. If there is a problem you should see both the live case and the snap cap eject when opening. Let us know how you progress. If it makes you feel better, every DRSS event I have attended, someone has doubled their rifle. I have seen it with a 500NE and a 577NE anong with several others. It adds some fun for all who attend...except the guy behind the stock!

R

Maki. It sounds like you had psyched yourself out a bit before shooting. The 470 is not that bad. You mentioned that you rested your forearm against a pole. I suggest initially shooting offhand so your body can rock freely. Good ear protection reduces muzzle blast. A PAST recoil pad can also help.

The previous advise about loading one barrel initially is sound and will ease your mind about a double discharge.

I put some numbers into a recoil calculator. 1000 grains, 2100 fps pushed by 200 grains of powder in a 10 pound rifle. 266 ft-lbs of recoil. I'm impressed.

quote:

If it makes you feel better, every DRSS event I have attended, someone has doubled their rifle.

And with double triggers no doubt!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

If it makes you feel better, every DRSS event I have attended, someone has doubled their rifle.

And with double triggers no doubt!

That's the only way a real double rifle is made!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

If it makes you feel better, every DRSS event I have attended, someone has doubled their rifle.

And with double triggers no doubt!

That's the only way a real double rifle is made!

Hey, if it makes one and all feel better, I've done it on an elephant! Did notice the extrs recoil.ut only in passing!

JPK

Nice post Dean.

Welcome to the club, brother!

Yeah buddy! Been there done that with a 470. One of the guys at the Hoot and Shoot last Saturday doubled Mjines' 500.

If you haven't doubled one, you haven't been shooting long enough!

Just my opine here, always shoot the right barrel first. That's the way they are regulated. Only use one finger, your index finger to pull the triggers. Repeat as often as possible!

Ive never done it, but even after careful instruction to a 140 pound 5 1/2 foot friend, he doubled my 500NE.
After his stagger stopped, short of falling, with his bleeding finger from the trigger guard, he quietly verbalized WOW and then sat down and said nothing for a few moments.

Being new to this forum and never owning a double rifle this thread is a hugh surprise to me.

For $20,000 +/- you would think all these guns would have some modern designed 100% reliable internal transfer bar firing pin block that made doubling a virtual impossibility. And perhaps that design would lend it self to a single trigger, as well. Is the two trigger thing about looking cool or getting the job done? Seems to work on the $2,000 shotguns for tens of thousands rounds of skeet, no problem. Why not on the 20k rifles?

Where do I get the pop corn?



found some, antlers photobucket, thanks...

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Being new to this forum and never owning a double rifle this thread is a hugh surprise to me.

For $20,000 +/- you would think all these guns would have some modern designed 100% reliable internal transfer bar firing pin block that made doubling a virtual impossibility. And perhaps that design would lend it self to a single trigger, as well. Is the two trigger thing about looking cool or getting the job done? Seems to work on the $2,000 shotguns for tens of thousands rounds of skeet, no problem. Why not on the 20k rifles?

Where do I get the pop corn?



found some, antlers photobucket, thanks...

Fact is that the majority of the time a person doubles the rifle it is the fault of the shooter….not the rifle. Yes there are times when the gun needs some work, however it is not nearly as frequent as one would think. Shooting a double rifle is a lot different than firing a shotgun. One major difference is the recoil factor. There are several makers who have designs built into their rifles similar to what you describe. Funny thing is that they do not tend to sell very well. I for one do not want my doubles to be over engineered. Honestly that also applies to my choice in bolt rifles (meaning Mauser). In a double I want two triggers and a simple basic tang safety…..no de-cock mechanism, and I never want to see open gaps between the barrels. I don’t need much velocity and only ask it to go bang each time I pull the trigger. To each his own and others obviously have different taste in their rifles and I respect their choices.

Proper shooting technique and gun fit is the best way to prevent problems IMO!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Being new to this forum and never owning a double rifle this thread is a hugh surprise to me.

For $20,000 +/- you would think all these guns would have some modern designed 100% reliable internal transfer bar firing pin block that made doubling a virtual impossibility. And perhaps that design would lend it self to a single trigger, as well. Is the two trigger thing about looking cool or getting the job done? Seems to work on the $2,000 shotguns for tens of thousands rounds of skeet, no problem. Why not on the 20k rifles?

Where do I get the pop corn?



found some, antlers photobucket, thanks...

Most every sidelock, a lot of top end boxlocks, all Heyms, all Searcy Deluxes have secondary sears to prevent mechanical failure from causing a rifle to double.

The secondary, intercepting or safety sears, as they are variously called, require the trigger for a respective barrel to be pulled for the barrel to fire. If the trigger is not pulled, the secondary sear catches the hammer prior to its contact with the firing pin.

As Roscoe mentioned, most doubling occurs as a result of shooter error, where the shooter fails to control his hand and finger under recoil and slaps the trigger of the barrel he isn't shooting.

I've done it. My rifle has intercepting, aka safety, aka secondary sears.

JPK

Roscoe, JPK - Thanks, this is new stuff to me. I guess my shotgun experience does not apply very well to big double rifles.

Fourbore,

Most English and higher end Spanish, Belgian, French and Italian sidelock shotguns, and quite a few top end box locks or trigger plate actioned shotguns also have intercepting sears.

A whole lot less doubling of shotguns due to shooter error in controling the trigger hand and finger though, because of the substantially reduced recoil.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Roscoe, JPK - Thanks, this is new stuff to me. I guess my shotgun experience does not apply very well to big double rifles.

Actually your shotgun experience should help you a lot. I expect you will make the transition to double rifles quite fast due to the Muscle memory you have established with your shot gunning. The primary difference will be the recoil factor. I expect you will do very well however my recommendations provided above regarding loading one live round at a time still apply. Honestly I do this quite a lot in my every day shooting and load development. For me it is due to the fact that I am a Left Hand shooter and have doubles in the LH and RH configuration…..I sometime forget which barrel the front trigger is going to fire!

Roscoe,

I'm lefty too. Seems we have a few of us here on AR's Double Rifle forum.

All of my double rifles and shotguns began life as right handed actions. But the stocks are bent or made for a lefty (or will be for new to me guns and rifles.)

JPK

While not quite as intense as a double rifle firing both barrell at once. I have a Weatherby Orion o/u that has double fired on me several times. The first time Weatherby fixed the problem. The second time that said the barrell had a slight bulge and would not repair the gun.

I was shooting a friends .470 double, only loading the right barrel (front trigger) when he told me to load both barrels. Of course, I used the front triger first and my finger slid off the trigger on recoil and hit the rear tigger (left barrel) nearly simultaneously. Yeah, it gave me reason to sit down and draw a slow breath of air. I think I could really feel my brain slosh around inside my skull. Fun, though!

There is such a thing as guns that'll double by themselves without accidentally hitting the second trigger.

I have a 1930s CE grade A.H. Fox 12 ga at the gunsmith's now that does that. It even got to where it'd open by itself after doubling. It was just plain worn out although no way to tell from its outside good looks.

Hopefully that rarely applies to DG rifles, but it did happen in this case. It's also got me a little leary of buying a very old worn looking WR 450/.400 that I'd otherwise love to own.

Seems like a good single trigger would prevent the human finger slip doubling.

quote:

Seems like a good single trigger would prevent the human finger slip doubling.

I find it very hard to believe that one of our german rifles is the problem. Our rifle makers have fine quality control. My guess is that you do not know how to shoot and are blaming the rifle.

Heinz

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Having never shot a double rifle before, I dropped a couple of cartridges in, rested my forearm against a pole and squeezed off a shot. The recoil pushed me back a step and twisted the fore end out of my hand.

May I say something here Mr. Maki? Based on your bad shooting on that buff and the other bad shots on your safari, an iron sighted double is going to put you at a huge disadvantage on your future hunts.

IMO.