I was at the range earlier today and a o/u double rifle I was shooting had problem it is a 9.3x74r shooting RWS 291gr loads the bottom barrel is on line with point of aim just little to the right this is correctible by adjusting the rear sight but the upper barrel is shooting two inches low or lower a 50 yards. My question does this gun need to be regulated or not or just the way it should be?

Firstly, what is the gun ?

Did you have a chronograph ?
Do you know the velocities ?
It helps a lot in trying to work these things out.

This gun you were shooting, have you shot it before and did it do the same thing or has it only just started doing it ?

Have you tried different loads in the gun ?

quote:

Originally posted by rnb:
I was at the range earlier today and a o/u double rifle I was shooting had problem it is a 9.3x74r shooting RWS 291gr loads the bottom barrel is on line with point of aim just little to the right this is correctible by adjusting the rear sight but the upper barrel is shooting two inches low or lower a 50 yards. My question does this gun need to be regulated or not or just the way it should be?

The first thing we need to know is what rifle you are shooting, and if it has adjustable regulation.

If the rifle doesn't have adjustable regulation then if both are in line for windage (one above the other) and the top barrel is shooting low, and the bottom barrel is shooting on the POA, then the loads are too fast, and they need slowing down because they are crossing! The bullets are exiting the muzzles too soon.

If you get a load that makes the top barrel shoot to POA, that same load should shoot the bottom barrel just under the top barrel, both in line windage wise! RWS ammo is noted for being a little fast. Try some Sellier & Bellot 286 gr loads in the rifle. Shooting a double rifle is a handloading affaire if you intend getting the very best from your rifle.

............Good luck, and keep us posted!

I'm sure Mac meant 286 grain bullets.

I was using the factory load listed on the new gun's target the gun is a beretta gold sable just like mine it is brand new I just shot the first shots from it today I have no proble with the factory or hand loaded ammo it shoots into less than 1 inchs for three shots at fifty yards (the handload is a Priva 286 bullet and 65 grains 4891) that I use in mine in the lower barrel but the upper barrel shoots a much lower point of impact at least two inches lower. in another web at one time I was told the upper barrel should shoot on top and the lower barrel to the bottom like a figure 8

quote:

Originally posted by rnb:
in another web at one time I was told the upper barrel should shoot on top and the lower barrel to the bottom like a figure 8

That's correct.

It's cross-firing with that load, which usually means the velocity is too high. Unfortunately, different lots of the same factory load are not always the same. Try some ammunition from a different lot. If it crosses as well, I'd talk to Baretta.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I'm sure Mac meant 286 grain bullets.

Thanks Mike I went back and corrected the typo

I just returned from the range and I think I have the problem solved, I checked the speed on my hand loads in his gun they was around 2090 fps so I started all over for the load for his gun I loaded 64 grains of IMR4350 that show about 2241 FPS with a NOS PART 286gr bullet in the reloading information. Using that information and 286 gr Priv bullets that load placed three of four shots in 3/4 of a inch and the four shot called about 2 1/2 lower, the bottom barrel still shoot lower that the top but I think he can live with it, I also tried with the same bullets H414 68 gr at a listed 2323 fps that load shot two separate groups the lower barrel grouped 1 inches and the upper barrel group was 3/4 apart and the composite group was 3 inches all in line vertical. so I think I am on the right track.

quote:

Originally posted by rnb:
I just returned from the range and I think I have the problem solved, I checked the speed on my hand loads in his gun they was around 2090 fps so I started all over for the load for his gun I loaded 64 grains of IMR4350 that show about 2241 FPS with a NOS PART 286gr bullet in the reloading information. Using that information and 286 gr Priv bullets that load placed three of four shots in 3/4 of a inch and the four shot called about 2 1/2 lower, the bottom barrel still shoot lower that the top but I think he can live with it, I also tried with the same bullets H414 68 gr at a listed 2323 fps that load shot two separate groups the lower barrel grouped 1 inches and the upper barrel group was 3/4 apart and the composite group was 3 inches all in line vertical. so I think I am on the right track.

The bottom barrel is supposed to shoot lower that the top barrel, because it is lower than the top barrel. If both barrels were punching the same hole the barrels would be crossing,and as the distance beyond the range where they hit the same hole they would get steadily more crossed the farther they went down range.

the gun is shooting the lower barrel higher that the top barrel.

rnb

Until, if ever, you start to reload I would get as many different 9,3x74R loads you can find and test them at 50 and 100 yards.

Keep very accurate rrecords on the actual targets you shoot.

Let the barrels cool completely between each group test.

In truth your O/U should not cross.

You might find a factory load that does not cross.

If not, then you might find a factory load that even though it crosses, still shoots accetable two barrel groups at 50 and 100 yards.

Also if you kee real good notes you might fing that with say a Norma load in the bottom barrel, and an RWS load in the to barrel the rifle shoots a tighter group.

While not a perfect solution, by testing you should be able to find a workable one.

Also when you reload you should be able to find a load that does not cross. If not then it might be time to regulate.

As long as my 2 barrel groups were with in a 4 inch circle at 100 yards, I would take the rifle hunting.

In reading your post you seam to be going by what the reloading guide says. The most useful tool you can own when reloading for any double rifle is a coronagraph. You need to know what the load is doing in your rifle.
Bill

They are a great tool but I don't want another piece of equipment in my full gun room I am running out of work room now that what happen when you have no one to tell you no, I have checked on the cheap ones but they are just that cheap and the high dollar ones are above my technical or comfort level. I guess I will keep trying to see what I can work it out if all else fails I can send it to be fixed but at this time I have been able to place 4 shots into 2 1/2 inches all inline three of the four was touching in a 3/4 inch clump and one called shot low with my eye sight and iron sights i doubt i can do much better I will try a 100 yards tomorrow and see what happens, the gun is brand new so if nothing else I will send it back to Beretta. Thanks I will keep working on this till I have resolved or I get fed up and it can join the other 150 vault queens

rnb

Sounds like it is shooting good enough at 50.

Let us know how it shoots at 100.

Be sure and use a target that you can get a consistant sight picture.

How well a particular "bullseye" on the target "looks" to the sights on the rifle, and your eyes can make a big difference in accuracy results.

what do you recommended for target at a 100 yards I am 62 and have a hard time getting a good sight picture at 50 yards with my tired old eyes and the small iron sights on the Beretta.

If the sights are black, ie no colored insert then either a large black bullseye on a white background or a red or orange bullseye again on a black back ground.

Some people even like blue???

The main thing is the bull should be big enough that you can get a good sight picture.

I use a 6 o'clock hold, usually with a line of white when shooting at 100 yards or beyond.

Another option is to get some lifesize animal targets, deer are usually the easiest to find, or some Police type targets and if you cannot get a good sight picture on the chest then hold on the neck.

I use the 8" Black circles, and put a 1" Square
or 1" Circle sticker at 6 o'clock.

You can bring your sights up to the white bits
and it is easy to maintain the same sight picture for both shots.


I find aiming at the centre of the black 8" circle, whetehr it has a white centre or
not a lot harder.

If you've got a printer at home go have a look here at all the FREE targets you can print out at home. Including some big ones.

http://targetz.com/

You could ask Berreta what the gun was regulated with.

Most are regulated with Norma 286grn Plastic point...but some are regulated with the 232grn loading.

quote:

Originally posted by rnb:
what do you recommended for target at a 100 yards I am 62 and have a hard time getting a good sight picture at 50 yards with my tired old eyes and the small iron sights on the Beretta.

I would consider adding a scope.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

quote:

Originally posted by rnb:
what do you recommended for target at a 100 yards I am 62 and have a hard time getting a good sight picture at 50 yards with my tired old eyes and the small iron sights on the Beretta.

I would consider adding a scope.
Bill

In view of the posters comments, I would as well.

And those O/U Beretta's suit scope really well.

Well after five hours at the range the gun wins I can get it to shoot six shots into a about two inches, but when I went to 100 yard I can get no better that 4 or five inches and some groups 9 inches I just can not see the gold bead well enough to shot any type of good group or the even perform a good ammo test I guess the only thing I can do is wait till after the first of the year to send it off have scope mount installed and then have them check the gun for regulation and if need be re-regulate the gun for Hornady ammo.

rnb

You say you can't see the gold bead ?

Is it Brass ?

1. Polish it with a rag to shine it up a bit.

2. Suggest if it is Round that you file it on an angle
of approx 45 degrees - it makes it alot clearer to see
and means the light always reflects off it at the same angle.

I shined it up before I went to the range and the sun at the range was at my back and with my progressive lens I can not see it clearly enough to shoot well, I haven't used iron sight since I shot precision shooting years ago When I started as a police snipe in the very early 70 I quite shooting any rifle with out a scope and even my M-4 and MP5 have had red dots or scopes since the became available. That being said the sight on the Beretta are not set up very well the rear sight is to far forward also and the rear notch is very tiny and the dot that drill for are not filled so it is hard to keep everything level.

OK

You obviously know what you are doing and what works and doesn't.

Things are out of my hands now while adjusting the rear sight the set screw holding it broke so its got to be fixed and since can not be done here locally (not a gunsmith I would trust to do the job) I called and have set an appointment to have a set of scope bases added and a new front and rear sight and if needed be while its there regulated with Hornaday Ammo. But I have no idea what type of mounts to used he listed so many.

If you can afford Claw mounts there are the way to go.
However Euroean pivot mounts work great.

Just tell them to mount the scoe as l;ow as possible.

If you gun shoots into 5 inches at 100 yards, the thing you need to do IMHO is TAKE IT HUNTING.

I have a 1.5to6x42 Swarovski, with the illuminated reticle, on my 9,3 double rifle and consider it perfect.

Well it certainly will not have been regulated at the factory with Hornady ammo..but since you are adding a scope that may well alter the regulation anyway. (berreta says it doesn't affect the regulation of their over unders..Krieghoff says it does affect theirs...) so you might as well get it regulated to the ammo you intend using.

I will let the gunsmith decide if it need regulating or not, but the gun does have issues with its regulation now, I have been told that in a O/U double rifle the top barrel should shoot higher than the bottom. At this time the upper barrel shoot lower that the bottom barrel that being said the lower barrel will shoot one hole groups and the upper barrel is not far behind and this is at fifty yards so the gun has great potential. I have called New England custom guns to have them do the work.

I know quite a few people who have installed after market scopes onto O/U double Rifle's that have not affected the regulation whatsoever.

Anyway, good luck.

rnb- Berreta should be able to give you the factory ammo that it was regulated with by looking at the serial no. Standard guns for general sale are regulated with a 286grn load- usually Plastic point - but if you order it new you can choose...and many folk in europe choose to have them regulated for the light 232grn loads.

If you know what you are starting with, it is much easier to get it perfect!