I am giving thought to buying a double rifle. It would be used in Africa a few times and around the ranch. And years down the line, re-sold. I have a plate in my neck and I am a bit recoil sensitive so it would need to be a 9.3, 375 maybe 40ish. Scope-able would be nice but not mandatory.

How would be the way to get the most double in the 15K to 25K range? I want the rifle to hold its value or appreciate through the years.

Should I just go to Champlins and see if I find something I like and can make a good deal on?

I am in no hurry and would appreciate some pointers.

Thanks,
Josh

Josh,

Plenty posted on this over the past 7-10 days. Take a look at some of the threads on this very forum.

I'd say you should wander over to Enid and check out the Champlin holdings as well as see what they sell in new doubles. If you reload, you'll have a bigger selection, including used British doubles in calibers for which loaded ammunition is very scarce.

But you need to look some doubles over and do some more reading to know what's out there and how it changes and crystallizes what you want.

Regards, Tim

Josh,
I'd stay away from a 9.3X74R unless you add some weight to the butt stock. A 450/400 3 inch double for it's weight isn't bad at all.
Some think it's too heavy for it's caliber, but I don't like getting kicked around any more than you do.

What do you think about 375 H&H, is it just too much of a rooky thing to do to have a side-by-side in a non-rimmed cal.?

I have noticed that Siace has some nice upgraded doubles, but I am leary of how well a new production double will hold and appreciate in value through the years. If utility was all I cared about I would by a Heym PH and be done with it.

The British doubles are SO HARD to figure out for value unless you are deep into them. Then some will have been re-finished adding another dimension to the real value.

I'll just keep reading and learning.

Josh

Josh,
If you are considering a double to hunt dangerous game then I suggest you find one chambered in a flanged cartridge. If you are hunting deer or pigs in the USA then anything you'd like will be fine!

Basic premise of a double rifle- The ability to give you two large caliber bullets at moderate velocity in large moderate pressure flanged cases with to aid the ease of extraction or ejection, in tropical heat, at close range.

Just my opine here- Best affordable NIB rifles made today are Heym, Searcey. Both have great quality of workmanship and customer support.

Both company reps are stand up, honest fellows.
New_guy (Chris) at HeymUSA and Butch Searcy are as good as they get.

Buying an old British double rifle can be a path as rough as a "Dragon's Tooth Tank Trap".
Unless you know what your are looking at, and you won't, you need someone who does know, to appraise the condition of the rifle. A lot can be fixed. Replacing bad bores and stocks get prohibitively expensive in a hurry. There isn't anything worse than looking forward to owning a nice old double and ending up with a chunk of wood and steel that you'll just hate!

There a lot of folks who do know what to look for. People like J.J. Parodeau of Champlin's in Enid OK.
Several member of our DRSS are more than willing to assist others in finding a good double rifle.

I guess I've rambled enough. Remember patience is a virtue when buying a double rifle.

Rusty, I appreciate the advice. Please feel free to ramble on in my direction anytime. I am reading every word.

The rifle will most certainly be used on dangerous game. Several buffalo hunts, at least one hippo on dry land and at least one elephant. These seem to be the minimal amount of African game that any man can hunt before his end. Less would indicate a wasted life.

I'll visit with J.J. at Enid for direction and Chris at Heym. Actually, Chris has been out to my ranch a year or two ago. He and a couple of friends came for a hog hunt. Hogs were mostly uncooperative and I was WAY too pre-occupied with another matter to spend any time with Chris. Quite a pity it worked out that way. He brought a Heym 470 and a Mauser that Jack Lott had owned. I just did not get any time with them.

Anyway, any help is appreciated.

josh

I went through this and opted for a vintage Brit 450/400 that came from www.champlinarms.com

and I am glad I made this choice. I persoanally feel magic in the old Brit rifles. If I'd bought new it

would have been a HEYM PH 450/400 right at 10 pounds. I've heard all good regarding the two men

in Texas that retail them new, www.eurogunimports.com and www.heymusa.com

What about Krieghoff? Is that funky cocking/uncocking safety too untraditional? They look like nice rifles but I don't know that I would care for the uncocker.

Is 375 flanged brass available? Is there any possibility of finding ammunition in Africa if I got separated from ammo? Say in Zim or someplace that buff abound? Is the 450/400 a better DG round than the 375 flanged?

Thanks guys,
Josh

Let me add my opinion. With your stated need for minimal recoil I would look very closely at the 450/400 3”. Ammo is available this is a good all around caliber for hunting everything including elephant, hippo. I think much better than the 375 flanged or 9.3X74R (which can be to light and kick to much). New rifles can be easily mounted with a scope and ordered to fit you. I would shoot it and then if you want you can add a recoil reducer to help. I don’t know your tolerance to recoil.
Where in west Texas are you located?
Bill

I have dealt with Champlin Arms several times. While George and company are there to make a profit, I don't think they will lead you wrong or try to sell you something that does not fit your criteria. If you are buying a used rifle in the price range you cite, I'd trust those folks to do you right.

As to new rifles, Searcys have been a good investment to me. I've always gotten at least my money back when I sold them and twice, a real premium that allowed me to upgrade to a nicer model. Butch is now sold out for 2009. There is a reason for that.

I've never owned a Heym, but Chris is a no b.s. guy and you can rely on his representations. Only a few years ago, Heyms were selling for $12K and now they are $15K. That should tell you something.

My advice:
Buy from Butch is you can stand the wait and if U.S. built and serviced means anything. Buy from Chris if time is a consideration. Heyms are top notch in their price range. Go to Champlins and get them to find you a Westley-Richards, Army-Navy, Rigby or other English double in .450/.400 3" if you want to hold a little history in your hand.

Ken, who posts here, sells some very reasonably priced doubles, both German (Merkel) and Italian (Siace?)... He usually has some in stock if you call him and your initial investment will be way below $15K. A double he sells in .45/70 would be a fun ranch gun and at less than $6K, probably pretty easy to see when ready. Go to http://www.kebcollc.com and give him a call with your wishes. He is a straight-shooter, too.

For what it's worth, Chopperguy has a BRAND NEW Krieghoff 450-400 in the classifieds for $9500. I think that is a hell of a deal. At some point, price is a consideration for most of us.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
For what it's worth, Chopperguy has a BRAND NEW Krieghoff 450-400 in the classifieds for $9500. I think that is a hell of a deal. At some point, price is a consideration for most of us.

Dave

GOOD DEAL!!!

Josh

I sent you a PM

Ok, so what about Krieghoff versus say the Heym or a used Brit. or Siace. Good points and bad points? It seems there have been a few Krieghoffs for sale lately.

What do you guys think?

J

If I was going to buy a big bore, new made double rifle today, I would buy a Heym 450/400 3" with a scope in claw mounts, unless I was going to shoot mostly nothing but elephants, then I would get a Heym 450 3 1/4".

I think you've been given some great advice from the Judge and others. Chris, Butch and Ken are all great folks and I own or have owned guns from all of them. The K-guns are very nice and the cocking piece is a non-issue and VERY easy to use IMO. The Demas V/c 450/400 is also a very nice double (I own one) and Ken has them from time to time.

Best of luck with your choice.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

John A.
DON'T DO IT. If you think you are going to get away with just one WEll it's just like those potato chips. You'll never stop with just one.

Any way good luck with your search. It is very exciting to start the search. If the economy continues on the trajectory that it is on the prices of older guns may come back to earth. Also I would not over look the older european doubles. I have an old Nowatny 450 bpe that is just a wonderful gun.

All so get Shooting the British Double rifle and give it a read. Lots of info there.

I have a Searcy 375 H&H Flanged magnum that has an integrated Talley rail built into the rib. The scope removal/mounting is fast and solid.

My next order from Butch will be a 450/400 3" with the talley rib for Cape buffalo and large plains game.

Butch's rifles and workmanship are second to none.

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
I have a Searcy 375 H&H Flanged magnum that has an integrated Talley rail built into the rib. The scope removal/mounting is fast and solid.

My next order from Butch will be a 450/400 3" with the talley rib for Cape buffalo and large plains game.

Butch's rifles and workmanship are second to none.

470drshooter,

I am curious why you want to step up ONLY one caliber so to speak, to 400 grn .41 caliber? Your .375 Fl Mag is a great cal.,

but I'd understand if you wanted another, larger rifle in .458 - .600 cal. Would you share your thoughts? Thanks much!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Josh,

I'd buy a Krieghoff in 450NE or smaller caliber USED, IF it was priced right, like the $9500- one that's out there NOW.

I'd practice with the cocking lever alot to make it's use second nature, [I don't feel it would be hard to develop the level

of skill required, just a good amount of drilling with the rifle.] and I'd enjoy it as a hunter and range shooter!

Jack....a great question....I would also think something in the 458 or so would be an awesome mate. That is the ONLY reason I'm selling one of my 400 bore doubles.
Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I have definitely considered the Krieghoff, but in the end have ruled them out. My reason for buying a double is to hunt African DG with a traditional double rifle. The Krieghoff is just a bit too far off the beaten path for my taste. It is looking like a used 40 something Brit. or a Heym/Searcy.

I will see how things develop in the next few months. A trip to Enid is high on my list.

Josh

Well,

Josh if you want somthing traditional break out your check book and just get you a bespoke double. The economy is ripe for the picking!

I ordered a Luxus/Famars, it was'nt cheap but FAMARS builds the closest thing to a british gun out their, ask Jeffery !

At SCI there were alot of good makers that were not out of reason

Fuchs, builds some nice guns and at around 28-30K US, not out of reason. I heald a SS sidelock 577 he had. I got very sticky fingers. Too bad it was 140K!

By coachsells, shot with COOLPIX S210 at 2009-01-31

have fun shopping!

Ed

Check out the thread on the Africa Forum about what doubles the PH's are packing.

I have a Krieghoff in 470. I thought about it for a bout two seconds before my first trip to Africa. I will never sell it. Once you have been up close and personal with a double it becomes part of you, and will always remind you of your adventures.

If there are any recoil issues, I think the 450/400 is a good bet, I find the recoil on the 470 a little "stiff"

What is a Demas Verney (forgot the last word)? They seem to be modestly priced and nicely finished. Why don't they cost more?

The Heym PH is high on the list but I am a sucker for high end Turkish.

J

By the way, this is what happened to my brother in law when he tipped the last primer down the primer tube with the wire pin from the pick-up tube. Exact cause of detonation still unknown.

j

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
I have a Searcy 375 H&H Flanged magnum that has an integrated Talley rail built into the rib. The scope removal/mounting is fast and solid.

My next order from Butch will be a 450/400 3" with the talley rib for Cape buffalo and large plains game.

Butch's rifles and workmanship are second to none.

470drshooter,

I am curious why you want to step up ONLY one caliber so to speak, to 400 grn .41 caliber? Your .375 Fl Mag is a great cal.,

but I'd understand if you wanted another, larger rifle in .458 - .600 cal. Would you share your thoughts? Thanks much!

Big5, I don't presume to answer for 470drshooter, but the 375H&H flanged, and a well weighted, and balanced 450/400NE 3" double are a very good pair of doubles. Both can handle the other's job in a pinch. The 375H&H flanged is a very good double rifle for anything up to and including Cape buffalo, and will actually handle anything walking if your big rifle goes south. The same can be said of the 450/400NE 3", it is perfect for buffalo, will take elephant with ease, but makes a fine plains game rifle id that is what is in your hands at the time, or by choice.

There used to be the bucket full of ".458 Bullets" being available that mattered greatly to the shooting eases if any of the 450s, but that is not as much of an advantage as it once was, with the Hornady supply now. The 470NE, and its brothers in that class are the beginning of the very specialized chamberings, and though there is a lot to be said for their close in power, there are trade offs. Recoil is one that some simply are very uncomfortable with in this class, and larger, and they are simply not as versatile as the 400s/416s. I have owned just about every class of double rifle below the 600NE, and if I could have only one double rifle to hunt everything, it would be a 375H&H flanged, but if I were limited to only two, then the choices would be between three chamberings. The top end would be a 450/400NE 3" at 10 lbs even, paired with #1 the afore mentioned 375 H&H fl, or a #2 9.3X74R double with facility on all three for a quick detach scope!

Right now My traveling pair is a pair of Merkels (easy to replace) a 140-2 Safari 470NE, and a 140E 9.3X74R. Having said that, if I could trade the 470NE for a clean 450/400NE 3" double I'd do it in a heart beat!

All just my opinion, and as you know opinions very!

Big Five Jack, I have a 500 NE on lay away in addition to my 375 Flanged. I just like the 450/400 with the 400 Gr bullet and its availability of reloading components.

The 375 Flanged was an available rifle and I bought the rifle from Butch Searcy at a reasonable price.

With the three double rifle caibres and bullet weights, they can be used to hunt any African game.

Plus with the latest stock market pull back, I view double rifles and firearms in general as a better investment then stocks and real estate.