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I've always been enamored of the old BP and NFB doubles of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Many of the impressive-sounding Express calibers, like 500, 577-500, 450 and such are rather anemic when you look at the ballistics, adequate perhaps for Deer, Hogs, Black Bear, and plains game at short range. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. It seems that the 577 is the only caliber that can still generate sufficient power to use for dangerous game in Africa, which is my intention. For those of you that have ventured down this path, what calibers did you use? Did you use lead or jacketed bullets, black or smokeless powder, what game have you taken? Anything to consider between Damascus vs steel barrels? Anything else to consider? I have Graeme Wright's book, but was looking for experiences and opinions from our group. | ||
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Next month you will move on lever action rifles. Just stick to the Blaser Biebs. Mike | |||
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That's what's great about firearms...there's so many different paths of interest. | |||
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Except yours changes ever 4 weeks - you gun trading machine. Mike | |||
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JB, you just need to go to lunch or have a couple of beers with Cal Pappas at DSC and you'll be good to go. Cheers, Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Does a percussion double count? Recently inherited a .76 cal SxS that my uncle refurbished years ago. Took it apart, re-rifled, regulated, repaired and refinished. Nice English side lock with half-cock safeties and 700gr balls.... Will be shooting something with it this fall. Need to take a few pics of it, looks like an honestly used rifle at this point...from what he told me, it was quite a project gun. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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I had occasion to visit with a fellow named Dick Winter awhile back regarding NFB rifles. The man is a walking encyclopedia of information on old doubles. I was very impressed. I know he has done load development for a number of people with NFB doubles too. He has also hunted dangerous game with NFB doubles and believes in the effectiveness of good cast bullets on dangerous game. Mike | |||
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Was it not Forsyth who used hardened round balls for dangerous game? I believe most of his rifles were also of rather large bore, yes, no? I would think a hardened bullet of large enough caliber adequate if it could be made to regulate. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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I guess back then, if you couldn't generate more velocity, you increased projectile size and weight. Some of those 4 and 6 bore rifles are more like cannons than shoulder arms! | |||
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There is an excellent article in the most recent Black Powder Cartridge News that is a good place to start regarding your question. The article focuses on the .577 BPE, but covers others, as well. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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Boomy, thanks. The 577 is the one that interests me. | |||
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Mike, Dick comes to my Safari Rifle Challenge big bore shoot and not only does he have some INCREDIBLE guns, he can shoot! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I own and shoot 4 BPE double rifles and my friends own 4 more. Here are the loads that shoot to the point of aim at 50 and 100 yards to the sights. 4" groups at 50 yards. 450 3 1/4 BPE three guns originally used 120 grains of Black. We use 49-50 grains of H or IMR 4198 with Kynoch foam wads under 300-325 grain LBT cast gas check bullets. We have tried 350 grain bullets, but those shot 6" above the sights at 50 yards. 500 3" and 3 1/4" BPE, we have three guns originally used 136-142 grains of Black. Three guns use 350 grain LBT cast gas check bullets over 52-57 grains of 4198 and Kynoch foam wads to keep the powder against the primers. Woodleigh 440 jacketed bullets shoot high. I have shot over 600 rounds made this way with Kynoch wads as described in Sherman Bell's article "Finding out for myself". I did try 375 grains of LBT bullets and 57 grains of 4198 in my 470 NE, but these shot 12" high at 50 yards. Fun practice load. I'm sorry to say we haven't downed any game. We shoot 10" steel gongs for fun. The gongs are made of AR 500 1/2" armor plate AND these NFB load shatter the plates at the mounting holes. 30-06 loads just bounce off, no damage. | |||
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On Holts Sept. 17th sale, lot 1233 there is a really nice 7lb 8oz Dumoulin 450 3/4 NE that is a NFB rifle. It is Nitro Proofed. Starting bid is 1,500.00 BP's (about 2,700 USD all in). Get bidding now as the auction will start in about 10 hours. You can always leave a commission bid (silent bid) if you want. | |||
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Oahu, welcome to AR. Sounds like you and your firend have quite a BP arsenal there! Dutch, I've never done one of the auctions. I'll have to take a look. | |||
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Biebs, any chance you have a Merkel 500 laying on a shelf somewhere that you would be interested in trading? I have a Thomas Bland .577 3", nitro proofed (650gr/90 cordite) under lever, non rebounding hammer, double rifle that I have owned for about 20yrs but never fired. Overall clean condition, bores are bright, locks up tight, and the barrels "ring like a bell" when tapped. Has been refinished somewhere in the last 100yrs and that bluing covers some pitting under the forend. Picked it up at a fair price but it is just a safe queen. I took it with me to the Westley Richards shop in Bozeman a few years ago. They felt that it was a solid shootable gun but we did not strike a deal at the time. I am out till tomorrow a.m. but PM me if it is something you might be interested in. "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Biebs, I have on a few occasions. I did bid on one double rifle in this auction and will know tomorrow about noon if I was highest bidder. | |||
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Dutch, isn't the Buyer's Premium like 20%? Plus you'll have import duties and fees. | |||
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Yes, Biebs, but if I can get that Double for 1800GBP's then I'm all in at about $3,200.00 with VAT and premium. Shipping is about $300.00 so I'm looking at $3,500 for something that would cost me about $7-8,000 here from a dealer. | |||
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http://jamesdjulia.com/?s=2218...aucID&meta_value=386 or this http://jamesdjulia.com/?s=2211...aucID&meta_value=386 NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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That H&H 4 bore is right up Cal's alley! | |||
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Yes, good point...the strong USD helps for once. | |||
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He has that H&H from Caswell that I was ready to pull the trigger on. Happy to see it is living in the islands as I would like to some day. Surely there is a pig there that needs to be release from its mortal coils at the end of its muzzle. | |||
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There's a Fraser 577 bpe and a Rigby rising bite underlever in 450 bpe at that James DJulia auction. Wow! | |||
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Old Gold, welcome to AR. If you like double rifles, you've found the right home :-) | |||
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Huvius, I have another Holland 450 BPE en route to me now, made in 1892 for the 7th Duke of Rutland, Lord John Manners.  Extended top strap:  Cased:  | |||
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That looks like Morris Hallowell's photography? | |||
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Yes, I bought this from him. | |||
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Thanks for the welcome Biebs. I've long been interested in double rifles, and more recently taken by the late 19th century bpe's (particularly the .577 as well). Something about early sidelocks with underlevers like that H&H above - man they don't get much more stunning than that! Congrats! | |||
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Gorgeous rifle, love those extended top tangs. Wow! Congrats!! DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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You know I've been at this WAY too long when I can recognize a seller by his photography :-( | |||
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Jon: Get a copy of "Wild Beasts and Their Ways" by Samuel Baker. Extensive discussions of just these firearms, and detailed discussion of the .577s. Intoxicating stuff! There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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OOOOH, gotta get it. Thanks Bill. | |||
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Bill..first of all I shouldn't have read your post, now I want it also...I see a Volume 1 and Volume 2 but they appear to be some kind of study book for various tests. Is the original just one volume? DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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9,3: I have the Wolfe Publishing Company's 1988 reprint of the 1890 original in a single volume. I have read it over and over again with great satisfaction, but I find all of Baker's books rewarding on many levels. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Thank you sir!! I appreciate the information. I suspected one volume but didn't want to get to the end of a book and learn it was only half!!!!! DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Son-of-a-gun!! Wild Beasts and Their Ways arrived late yesterday afternoon! Haven't really got into it yet but am enjoying it so far! DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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I found this discussion interesting because, last month I took a Kudu and a Cape Buffalo with my 1882 Cogswell & Harrison 577 2 3/4" BPE using a 525 grain hard cast bullet backed with 64 grains of H 4198 at 1800 FPS. The bullet had a large meplat that contributed to tissue damage and lessened penetration. It punched through the Kudu broadside at 60 yards. The buffalo was a 20 yard frontal shot that took a large trough of muscle out of his heart. He went 30 yards and was down. I put two insurance shots in the shoulder. The frontal shot went through the chest/heart area and was recovered in the paunch. The two in the shoulder went through the chest and struck the off side but, were not recovered. Certainly not Nitro Express performance but, it worked. While I love my double rifles next time I'm taking my 416 Rigby because it wears a Leupold scope and iron sights. I definitely shoot better with a scope. | |||
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Elk, a scoped bolt gun may be more appropriate, but congratulations on hunting Africa the way it used to be. A Buff and a Kudu...awesome! | |||
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I use to shoot with an Attorney who shot BP doubles, late 80/early 90, at the Hawai'i Kai range; sound familiar? | |||
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