Hi

I recently got some Rhino Solid Shank 500grs and wanted to test them in my Merkel 470NE.

Loaded up 108grn of ADI 2209 (the recommended start load) and shot 2 over the Chrony:

2250 fps R
2270 fps L

Bertram Case (3rd firing), Fed215 primer

The shots crossed at 50 yrds, 5" high and about 6" apart.

This has me worried, as they seem to be going way to fast, but I'm only on the start load.

Any recommendations would be helpful,is it the bullets? Because next I'm going to test some GS Customs...

(I'm off to find a bullet puller that will fit a 470)

Regards
HendrikNZ

Check your reference again. Which one did you use? You've gotten powders mixed up with predictable results. Your load is WAY over max.

For .470 with 500 grain bullets, a starting load with ADI 2209 would be about 92 or 93 grains. Standard velocity (maximum) should be reached in the 60cm barrels of the Merkel at 95 to 98 grains or so, depending on the density of the powder lot.

If it turns out that you read your reference correctly, I wouldn't use data from that source again.

Can't you get Woodleigh's in NZ? Much better to work up with Woodleigh softs. I wouldn't use any mono or solid shank bullet in a double.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks 400

Double checked the references:
ADI loaders handbook, 4th ed. 2004
and Nick Harvey's 7th ed

Both state a start load with 2209 of 108grn with 500grns.
I'm just glad I don't use 2217 - start is 120grns...

I pulled the rest of my batch and will start again tomorrow at 92.

I would love to use Woodleighs, but the local agents are to fucking useless to import it. So I'll hopefully get some in Dec when a mate goes over to Aussie.

Cheers
H

Screenshot of Nick Harveys Manual for the 470NE

In Graeme Wright's new edition of "Shooting the British Double Rifle", under "Average Regulating Loads", for the .470/500 grain, he lists 94 grains AR 2209, Federal 215 and a foam wad at 2110 fps from a 23.5" barrel. That's a warm .470 load for a 60cm barrel. In another gun with 26" barrels, 95 grains also gave 2110 fps.

Another average regulating load he lists is 104 grains AR2213SC for 2085 fps in 23.5" barrels. This load gave 2160 fps, which is a bit fast (standard is 2125 in a 31"), at 13 tons pressure in a 28" pressure barrel. Harvey has you starting 10 grains higher. I'd be seriously suspicious of his data.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Graeme Wright is likley to have shot all of his loads.
That is unlikely for Nick Harvey in a 470.

Loaded up some test loads last night and got the following data this morning, still using the Rhinos, Fed 215 and BB with AR 2209

98 grn
R 1996
L 1924

99 grn
R 1996
L 1990

100 grn
R 2079
L 2040

None of these loads crossed!!!!!
I'm back on target!

Thanks for all the help so far, I should have stuck with Graeme Wrights' book.

I'll keep on updating this thread as I do more testing - I'm moving onto 500 gr HV GS Customs next...

Cheers
H

Your original load is around eight grains to much.
The Merkel that I owned along with a mates one shot well with 103 to 103.5grns of 09 for 2140fps with Woodleighs.

quote:

I wouldn't use any mono or solid shank bullet in a double.

Do you include GS Custom drive band bullets and Northfork solids with that opinion?

In my opinion anyone useing these bullets in a double rifle is risking damage to a pair of very expensive barrels. These bullets are not suitable to be used in double rifle in the configuration shown here. VERY crudely made, and IMO will raise pressures into the clouds, and place undue strain on the barrels, ribs, and regulating wedge joints of double rifles.

The same bullet with properly cut pressure rings like the GS CUSTOM, and North Fork CPS, and FPS would be safe, but IMO, not as shown here!

.....................

I've used the 425 gr Rhino in the .458 AR bolt rifle. I did not find the bullet to be crudely made. They are very accurate (100 yard clover leaves at 2400 fps) and work like the Hammer of Thor on larger game.

HOWEVER, the shank is long and awfully solid for use in a DR. I think I'd stick with Woodleighs for use in a DR. They are accurate enough and KNOWN to work in DRs and on game.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
I've used the 425 gr Rhino in the .458 AR bolt rifle. I did not find the bullet to be crudely made. They are very accurate (100 yard clover leaves at 2400 fps) and work like the Hammer of Thor on larger game.

HOWEVER, the shank is long and awfully solid for use in a DR. I think I'd stick with Woodleighs for use in a DR. They are accurate enough and KNOWN to work in DRs and on game.

I think I didn't word that right! What I meant was they are very crudely made for use in a double rifle. The pressure rings are too wide. The very thin rings around a North Fork are not only very thin, but the tops of which are barely larger diamether than the bottom of the grouves, and the bottom between them is deeper than the lands, so that the displaced material can be moved into the gourves between the rings, so that the lands never touch the main solid shank. That is a complex bullet, and the Rhino is crude in that respect.

Mac,

Ah ... I understand. Is the difference between a simple design and an elegant design.

Remaining Rhino bullets will be used for (expensive) fishing weights.

I'm moving onto GS Customs next until a supply of Woodleighs arrive.

Thanks for the advice and offers of help, it is really appreciated and hopefully the next new guy can learn from this.

Cheers
H

quote:

Originally posted by HendrikNZ:
Loaded up some test loads last night and got the following data this morning, still using the Rhinos, Fed 215 and BB with AR 2209

98 grn
R 1996
L 1924

99 grn
R 1996
L 1990

100 grn
R 2079
L 2040

Hendrick:

Contrast your results with Graeme's - 2110 fps with 94 grains in the same length barrel.

This is why it's SO important to work up. ALL of these powders can have significant variations in density lot to lot. The difference here really isn't that surprising. Velocity on your 100 grain load looks good. How did it shoot?
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Mac,

Ah ... I understand. Is the difference between a simple design and an elegant design.

The difference is between one that is apt to damage a double rifle, and one that is safe in a double rifle because of the diffrent design!