I think we have wasted enough time on arguing over what a tool is called. The best tool in the world will not work if the best practice process is not followed.
I watched a video of a Sabatti "regulator" shooting in a rifle. I thought he was at least two or maybe three adjustments from being where he should be. The group (we all know one left and right doesn't mean much)and they weren't horizontal. I have observed several of the Sabatti test targets that mired this. Not centered on the aiming point and not horizontal or more vertically strung. I think they were shot but the quality control process was faulty. It was not the fault of the tool but the fault of the process.
Hear is the video
Hear is one of the videos. Notice he doesn't have the forend on and shooting it resting on the rest. I think it was only 25 meters or so.
http://video.nghenhachaynhat.com/watch/v0qzBy5mijk
I don't consider that rifle "regulated"
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:
Would high end double rifles from Holland and Purdey and WR have bent barrels?

Westley Richards don't use the term 'bend'...but describe the regulation process as -moving/adjusting- the barrels
(in part, by 'drawing' the barrels via the wedge), in order to achieve correct convergence/divergence, and point of aim.


http://www.theexplora.com/regu...at-westley-richards/ ..

The term bend, to me, seems inappropriate, as it implies something has been made independently set in the metal[barrel]component,
(i.e.; like permanently bending a bolt handle), which is not what is being done in regulating SxS barrels.

I see the regulation process more as micro-flexing/deflection/shifting of the barrels [or -moving/adjusting- of the barrels, as WR calls it]
which unlike a bent bolt handle, the barrels are instead put under tension and forcefully held/set/fixed in
the desired altered position with solder, in order to achieve & maintain correct divergence and point of aim.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Negative on the bending. A wedge is utilized and it is the placement of the barrels parallel to each other utilizing a wedge for barrel placement
to achieve proper alignment and bullet placement.

That explanation is too simplistic and incomplete, since there is somewhat more to the barrel adjusting/regulation process, than just movement of the wedge.

THe wedge is for converging(drawing in) or diverging the barrels, and does not take into account the purpose of some nine set-screws
in a WR jig.

The part of a bespoke SxS the english makers will set with a permanent 'bend' are the cast,bend & pitch of a stock.

Here we see the Trevallion built jig at Purdey....

Trax, sent you a PM not to hijack this thread

The standing breach is flat and a pair of cartridges sit flush in the barrels, thus the chambers have to be precisely parallel. If the barrels were straight but converged this couldn't be true.

Yet the barrels have to converge in order to allow for right or left swing during recoil before the bullet leave the barrel. If they were completely parallel they would shot extremely wide.

So they're bent

I would not want my barrels bent.Any method of joining them so they have the greatest chance of not needing to be bent,I am all for.I would think there would be issues arising from bent barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
I think we have wasted enough time on arguing over what a tool is called. The best tool in the world will not work if the best practice process is not followed.
I watched a video of a Sabatti "regulator" shooting in a rifle. I thought he was at least two or maybe three adjustments from being where he should be. The group (we all know one left and right doesn't mean much)and they weren't horizontal. I have observed several of the Sabatti test targets that mired this. Not centered on the aiming point and not horizontal or more vertically strung. I think they were shot but the quality control process was faulty. It was not the fault of the tool but the fault of the process.
Hear is the video
Hear is one of the videos. Notice he doesn't have the forend on and shooting it resting on the rest. I think it was only 25 meters or so.
http://video.nghenhachaynhat.com/watch/v0qzBy5mijk
I don't consider that rifle "regulated"
Bill

I would guess that he does not have the forearm on to avoid marring it up from the heavy recoil.

Thank you TRAX for posting the pictures from Westley and the picture of the stock bending tool. Did you notice the timer in the picture.
I will now clear the air on weather barrels are bent while being regulated.
If during the process they are moved past the point where they would return to their original "neutral" location when the solder is removed they are bent. The regulation process "locates" the ends of the barrels so that the bullet will hit where the sights are pointing.
The tools used during the process move the location of the barrels but they are not bent.
Mack if Westley calls the tool a JIG.
Bill

Yes, they are bent; Mr Shootaway, I assure you that your barrels are bent, or flexed if some prefer that work. There is no other way to regulate a double rifle. And yes, bending, or flexing barrels is usually something we don't want, but we have no choice, and these aren't bolt action varmint rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, they are bent; Mr Shootaway, I assure you that your barrels are bent, or flexed if some prefer that work. There is no other way to regulate a double rifle. And yes, bending, or flexing barrels is usually something we don't want, but we have no choice, and these aren't bolt action varmint rifles.

I need to hear that from someone(two) who builds DR's for a living.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

Westley calls the tool a JIG.

In engineering/manufacturing terms, a JIG is a device that can hold and adjust the workpiece into position.

Hence WR are 100% correct in referring to their device with adjustable setscrew feature, as a JIG.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
in the context of double rifle regulation, the word JIG indicated a PRE-SET frame that the barrels can be installed in
and soldered up,without firing the rifle.

a PRE-SET frame should more correctly be called a FIXTURE, not a jig.
There is a real difference between the two.... otherwise the manufacturing industry would not refer to them seperately
as 'jigs' & 'fixtures' .

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The words ADJUSTMENT FIXTURE used here is a frame with six adjustment screws used to make adjustments..

A fixture with the additional feature of adjustable screws that allow shifting of the workpiece(i.e.;barrel),
is technically known as a JIG. ...Hence, WR call it a JiG for a very good sound logical reason.

Originally posted by MacD37:
“in the context of double rifle regulation, the word JIG indicated a PRE-SET frame that the barrels can be installed in
and soldered up,without firing the rifle.”
Comment by Trax:
“a PRE-SET frame should more correctly be called a FIXTURE, not a jig.
There is a real difference between the two. “
Originally posted by MacD37:
“The words ADJUSTMENT FIXTURE used here is a frame with six adjustment screws used to make adjustments.. “
Comment by Trax:
"A fixture with the additional feature of adjustable screws that allow shifting of the workpiece(i.e.;barrel),
is technically known as a JIG. ...Hence, WR call it a JiG for a very good sound logical reason.”
Originally posted by MacD37:
The words ADJUSTMENT FIXTURE used here is a frame with six adjustment screws used to make adjustments.. "
Comment by Trax:
"A fixture with the additional feature of adjustable screws that allow shifting of the workpiece(i.e.;barrel),
is technically known as a JIG. ...Hence, WR call it a JiG for a very good sound logical reason."
_____________________________________
Yes, Trax is 100% correct. This is one example of Mac's knowing a hell of a lot about double rifles, but not knowing nearly as much as he thinks he does. Mac needs to go back and gain a real understanding of the difference between a jig and a fixture---hell, to make it simple, look them up in an encyclopedia! He once before tried to "correct" my use of terms "jig" and "fixture," but I wrote him off much earlier, for his arrogance, and didn't bother to give him more attention, which he loves, so I dropped the whole issue.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, they are bent; Mr Shootaway, I assure you that your barrels are bent, or flexed if some prefer that work. There is no other way to regulate a double rifle. And yes, bending, or flexing barrels is usually something we don't want, but we have no choice, and these aren't bolt action varmint rifles.

I need to hear that from someone(two) who builds DR's for a living.

dpcd is correct. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a slight degree your barrels are bent. And just for the record I do build doubles...

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, they are bent; Mr Shootaway, I assure you that your barrels are bent, or flexed if some prefer that work. There is no other way to regulate a double rifle. And yes, bending, or flexing barrels is usually something we don't want, but we have no choice, and these aren't bolt action varmint rifles.

I need to hear that from someone(two) who builds DR's for a living.

dpcd is correct. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a slight degree your barrels are bent. And just for the record I do build doubles...

Double whats?

Kinda thought that was obvious....

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
_____________________________________
This is one example of Mac's knowing a hell of a lot about double rifles, but not knowing nearly as much as he thinks he does. .

It is true that others rarely see us as we see ourselves, and that applies to everyone.

So gentlemen it seems I have been told the facts by the expert so must yield to the powers that be!

DRJ is no doubt far ahead of me in the actual building of double rifles, and I certainly may be wrong in the names of the different tools. However the doubles I have regulated have shot properly, done with the tools that were called as I stated. So this is a matter of semantics not practice in my opinion.

If my post on this website are offending anyone here then I apologize, and if need be my posts may simply be deleted if that will help.
.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:
Kinda thought that was obvious....

Behave yourself or you'll have your string and hammer confiscated.

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, they are bent; Mr Shootaway, I assure you that your barrels are bent, or flexed if some prefer that work. There is no other way to regulate a double rifle. And yes, bending, or flexing barrels is usually something we don't want, but we have no choice, and these aren't bolt action varmint rifles.

I need to hear that from someone(two) who builds DR's for a living.

dpcd is correct. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a slight degree your barrels are bent. And just for the record I do build doubles...

Have you built any chopper lump barrels? If so do you think this method is better in any way?

I have not built a chopper lump rifle; it is in the way too hard category, but they are regulated in the same way. Think about it; once you get the breeches built, they stay in one piece whilst you work on the rest of the gun. You wouldn't want to tear it all apart to adjust where the muzzles point (so you bend them a little).
Same with a brazed on, shoe lump; once that part of the barrel assembly is made, you don't go back and take the barrels completely apart just to move the muzzles.
And for monoblock, well, the block is a solid piece so you can't move that anyway. Bottom line, you bend the barrels. Or flex them. Pick a word you like. In a fixture; pick any word you like for that too.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

Westley calls the tool a JIG.

In engineering/manufacturing terms, a JIG is a device that can hold and adjust the workpiece into position.

Hence WR are 100% correct in referring to their device with adjustable setscrew feature, as a JIG.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
in the context of double rifle regulation, the word JIG indicated a PRE-SET frame that the barrels can be installed in
and soldered up,without firing the rifle.

a PRE-SET frame should more correctly be called a FIXTURE, not a jig.
There is a real difference between the two.... otherwise the manufacturing industry would not refer to them seperately
as 'jigs' & 'fixtures' .

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The words ADJUSTMENT FIXTURE used here is a frame with six adjustment screws used to make adjustments..

A fixture with the additional feature of adjustable screws that allow shifting of the workpiece(i.e.;barrel),
is technically known as a JIG. ...Hence, WR call it a JiG for a very good sound logical reason.

I was kidding Mac about the JIG decusion we had earlier.
I maintain that you DO NOT bend the barells as if you did they would not return to their original position if un solderded. The barrels have a natural amount of spring. If you bent them they would take a set and would not return to their original position. When they are regulated they are "located" not bent. To change the regulation the barells are unsolderd and re positioned then re solderd so they don't move.
Bill

Gentlemen, this is only a matter of OPINION about the names of the different tools be they JIG, FIXTURE, TEMPLATE or FRAME used to BEND, MOVE, LOCATE or FLEX , the barrels to regulate the barrel sets on double rifles. We all know what they say about opinion! EVERYBODY HAS ONE!

The fact is the movements of the barrels are so small that it doesn’t matter what you call it just that it is enough in the right direction to cause regulation. The putting pressure on the barrels enough so it stabilizes the harmonics and makes the rifle shoot properly.

This is done all the time with single barreled target rifles by applying pressure with post and pillar bedding to stabilize the harmonics, but nobody finds fault with that process, even though that barrel is being MOVED,FLEXED, BENT, or LOCATED! In a double rifle it is somehow black magic!

..................................................Time to bury this as a lost cause!

That is what I am trying to say; these are just words; the results are the same no matter what you call it.

I would think that the regulation process is quite self explanatory once one watches some videos of it.

Now, one thing I have wondered about is whether a non-threaded monoblock or shoelump can be regulated to some extent by rotating the barrel in the breech end to bring the barrels together?
I can imagine, as an example, if one barrel shoots to 5 O'clock to the other, both could be rotated to a point that they would cross as in two overlapping circles. In fact, they should overlap at two points, one high and one low.

I must presume the very experienced and established doublerifle makers have a reference data recorded so once the barrels is solded the first time it will become a minimum the wedge is to be sqeezed between the barrels in order to minimize stress(bending)influenced by the wedge.

Jens; ;yes.
Huv; NO; your barrels start out straight so rotating them won't do anything; anyway, as I said earlier, the breech is done way before you get to the regulation part. You can't be starting over just to make a few thousandths muzzle movement. Don't call it bending, that term freaks some people out.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Jens; ;yes.
Huv; NO; your barrels start out straight so rotating them won't do anything; anyway, as I said earlier, the breech is done way before you get to the regulation part. You can't be starting over just to make a few thousandths muzzle movement. Don't call it bending, that term freaks some people out.

I am with you I think "LOCATE" would be a better description of what happens. You change the location of the barrels in relation to each other and to the sights. The solder and wedge and ribs are just used to hold the barrels in place so that they shoot to the sights and are regulated.
Happy New Year
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Gentlemen, this is only a matter of OPINION about the names of the different tools be they JIG, FIXTURE, TEMPLATE or FRAME used to BEND, MOVE, LOCATE or FLEX , the barrels to regulate the barrel sets on double rifles. We all know what they say about opinion! EVERYBODY HAS ONE!

only matter of opinion??...what a load of nonsense!

The recognised differences between a JIG (vs) FIXTURE, are very real in the manufacturing world.
The industry established definitions/understandings of such are not just based on mear ignorance based opinion of a select few.

Its important that this is pointed out since others and myself, see AR also as an educational source for readers.

Hopefully readers will then walk away the somewhat wiser, rather than being dumb down by misleading statements by people who know no better.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Though the line of sight through the barrels do cross, that doesn’t mean the shots from those barrels do, but, in fact, shoot side by side,...

Depending on how far out the barrels initially print on target after being fired for the first time after initial joining,
it could end up that the line of sight of the barrels do not end up crossing on final regulation.

The two individual barrels can each display quite an amount of POI difference between them {each in any direction} as seen on target
in the initial first 4 POI test fire shots, before regulation/adjustment process actually begins.
If it happens the two barrels are each far enough out in where they print their initial shots, it could mean that the two tubes
don't end up crossing line of sight, despite the bullets still hiting where the person in charge of regulation finally requires.

Ive heard of individual barrels on bespoke english doubles each initially hitting several inches away from where the regulator wants them.
So depending on how far out & what direction each of the two barrels have initially printed, one could have it that the shots from both barrels
converge to a large degree on initial POI test firing,.. then by the time all the required regulation is done, the line of sight of the barrels
could actually be diverging, rather than converging to a crossing point.

quote:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a slight degree your barrels are bent. And just for the record I do build doubles...


Dirk Schimmel

If Dirk says they are bent to a slight degree then they are bent to a slight degree. This guy has built a triple shitload of doubles professionally for a well known brand and has more than a few custom built doubles under his belt.

That is the end of the thread right there. Question answered.

Originally posted by MacD37:
" Gentlemen, this is only a matter of OPINION about the names of the different tools be they JIG, FIXTURE, TEMPLATE or FRAME used to BEND, MOVE, LOCATE or FLEX , the barrels to regulate the barrel sets on double rifles. We all know what they say about opinion! EVERYBODY HAS ONE!
ANSWER BY TRAX:
only matter of opinion??...what a load of nonsense!"
"The recognised differences between a JIG (vs) FIXTURE, are very real in the manufacturing world. The industry established definitions/understandings of such are not just based on mear ignorance based opinion of a select few."
"Its important that this is pointed out since others and myself, see AR also as an educational source for readers.
Hopefully readers will then walk away the somewhat wiser, rather than being dumb down by misleading statements by people who know no better."
____________________________

Well put, but we have some few arrogant souls who refuse to acknowledge ignorance of any kind, so they distort the facts, twist words, give new meanings to facts and truths, in a vain attempt to elevate their standing among peers, but showing only more arrogance above others. For good measure, they verbally attack, poke fun at, or otherwise put down anyone they perceive as challenging their self professed "wisdom." All, or any of this behavior, demonstrates only one thing, it shows their petty, juvenile, childish behavior, regardless of their real age. Anyone who truly looks at this forum, can see this sort of thing happening constantly, which has driven away numerous worthy contributors through the years; I for one am glad for that.